Did the snake or serpent in the garden have free will?

by jam 36 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • myelaine
    myelaine

    dear darth frosty...

    easy now...no need to get angry and accusative.

    the LORD God said: "And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." "...history continues...Jesus did know the evil of death.

    And all who dwell on the earth will worship him(the beast), whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth. (revelation 13:8)

    love michelle

  • ProdigalSon
    ProdigalSon

    You can't read myths literally~ otherwise you get the opposite of what it really means.

    The serpent is a sacred symbol representing the Life Principle. Jehovah is the jealous and tyrannical idiot who wants to keep mankind suppressed and enslaved. The story doesn't even try to hide this fact! Why do you think Moses held up the copper serpent in the wilderness?

    If there is no free will we cannot evolve.....

    The Cosmic Serpent - DNA and the Origins of Knowledge by Jeremy Narby

    http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_adn12.htm

    Caduceus of Mercury

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caduceus

    Ouroboros

    http://www.crystalinks.com/ouroboros.html

    The Caduceus vs. the Staff of Asclepius

    http://drblayney.com/Asclepius.html

  • myelaine
    myelaine

    dear Prodigal Son...

    are you saying that free will ALWAYS involves moving forwards or evolving?...

    does an "incarnate" have the free will to choose to move forward...or...is he subject to something else besides his own free will?

    with free will couldn't he choose to jump to the "good life"?...or no...there is no such thing as free will in your theory...really.

    how do YOU equate the two?

    love michelle

  • tec
    tec

    Was
    the snake or serpent created perfect, God saw it was good. So if the serpent or snake(presumably innocent) had been possessed by satan and it was satan doing, why should the snake be punished. It,s clear that snake was punished, he lost his legs and had to crawl on it,s belly and eat dirt.

    Satan was the serpent. No possession involved.

    Peace,

    Tammy

  • erbie
    erbie

    Similarly: Did Dr. Spock really have pointey ears?

    Seriously!

  • ProdigalSon
    ProdigalSon

    dear Prodigal Son...

    love michelle

    love to you too my dear!

    are you saying that free will ALWAYS involves moving forwards or evolving?...

    No. Sometimes free will is interfered with by those who are selfish..... known in your Bible as the "Pharisees". This refers to much more than a Jewish sect... it's an ideology. We have seen this on earth for the last 13,000 years. It goes in astrological cycles as far as how much interference is allowed.

    does an "incarnate" have the free will to choose to move forward...or...is he subject to something else besides his own free will?

    An "incarnate" must first find out what he is capable of before he can move forward. Staying stuck in restrictive mindsets will keep a person from evolving. This can be difficult to overcome as those who wish to suppress have been programming people from birth and even while still in the womb for a very long time. They are mind-control Nazi-types and they know exactly what they are doing. They've bought up all the media and taken over educational curriculum. We have little chance without some serious soul-searching and investigation of various philosophies above and beyond the "status quo".

    with free will couldn't he choose to jump to the "good life"?...or no...there is no such thing as free will in your theory...really.

    Humanity as a whole is ready to do exactly that.... once the dark and selfish elite are out of the way. Problem is they ain't going quietly but they've been check-mated and are currently negotiating to save their necks from the wrath of their victims.

  • dark angle
    dark angle

    @Terry,

    I have the same thoughts too.

    Moreover, this free will is useless because God wants to obey and follow him anyways. Infact unquestionable obedience is what the WT always emphasize. Therefore freewill seems to have to function after all, or worse detrimental if we continue in the WT paradigm.

  • LoneWolf
    LoneWolf

    I just had to respond to Terry when he asks, "What possible advantage could so-called "Free" Will give something you create?".

    Tell me something, me frien': Say you wanted a life companion. Would you rather have a real life flesh and blood woman, who might have headaches some evenings, or would you rather have a blow-up doll that never refuses? (Grin)

  • jam
    jam

    Tammy; Ok, here we go, don,t want to drag this on but

    "because you have done this, cursed are you above all

    cattle(Satan) and above all wild animals:(Satan) upon your belly

    you shall go and dust you shall eat (satan). Again, who was cursed?.

    I am using the Bible own words to prove A point, no other sources,

    just the logic of the Bible. Is Satan cursed above all cattle and above

    all wild animals, when the Bible say he is the one that continue too

    deceive mankind. Do not make sense.

  • LoneWolf
    LoneWolf

    Hi, Peeplezs!

    Wal, ah done been cogitatin' a bit on yore question about thet thar snake in the Garden of Eden, an' thunk me sum thots about it. Ah'll run 'em by yu an' see if'n they makes any scents.

    These words to Satan (the snake) would be the first meeting of the various parties after Satan caused Adam and Eve to sin, and tension and feelings would be running high. The Biblical account would pretty much be a cut and dried reporting of events and language, and most of the color, innuendos, and interplay - such as facial expressions, body language, etc., would be left out. Sometimes these things make quite a difference and will explain a lot.

    For instance, you can say the same thing to a woman, and get a totally different reaction depending on how it's phrased: "When I look into your eyes, time stands still" will probably get you a kiss, but if you tell her "Your face would stop a clock", you might have to duck. They mean the same thing, don't they? Now try to translate them into a different language and keep the innuendos intact.

    So my thought is that maybe we should hop in our time mosheen and go back to the Garden of Eden and look at it as if we were there. Of course, there were only two people then, so we'll have to be something else. You'll be a butterfly on a leaf and I'll be a honeybee on a flower - okay, okay! If yer gonna be that way about it, yu can be the honeybee and I'll be the butterfly!

    We look at each other. "Hey, look! Something's up over there on the other side of the meadow!" Naturally, we buzz and flap our way over there to get a better look.

    To our surprise, Creator is highly displeased! We've never seen him that way before! Lucifer, his foreman over the construction of the earth, appears self-satisfied and defiant, and those two new critters, "people" I think they're called, although it runs in my mind that they are also known as "hoomin beans" or some such thing, are both lookin' like they swallered a bug.

    We soon find out why. It seems that Lucifer chose a real cautious varmit (the snake, which would add to his credibility) and, using it like a ventriloquist's dummy, proceeded to fill the "hoomans" clear full of a load of smelly stuff, eggzactly whot, I'd rather not say. That, in turn, caused them to do something they weren't 'sposed to.

    Then we find out what: After questioning Eve as to what they were forbidden to do and getting a correct answer that they would die if they ate the fruit of one certain tree, he states flatly, "You positively will not die. For God knows that in the very day of your eating from it your eyes are bound to be opened and you are bound to be like God, knowing good and bad."

    Now, that's something anyone would take personally! In those few words, Lucifer told Eve that:

    1. Creator was a liar and deceiver.
    2. He was selfish and stingy with his largess.
    3. He was not perfect like he said he was and therefore unworthy of their loyalty and worship.
    4. They had a right to more than they were given.
    5. They should not be satisfied with Jehovah's headship or laws.
    6. There was a better way and that he Lucifer (later, Satan), would be their benefactor and show it to them.

    If someone pretending to be an authority snuck in behind our backs and told our families something like that about us, I reckon we'd be all bent out of shape too! The difference would be in our reactions. You and I would probably say with some enthusiasm: "Why, you @+%)*&^)$#&^%(*+%$!!!!!", then haul off and bust him in the proboscis.

    However, Creator has more couth than we do. He's angry, but that is well under control, because he is also powerful and has no need to feel vulnerable, so we could expect that his answer would be unhurried, dignified, and directly to the point. He will pronounce punishment and then waste no further time and effort on this slob. He doesn't even give the fool the honor of being directly spoken to, but he talks to the snake instead!

    And what a punishment! What he's saying in so many words is roughly this: "You pretended to be a snake, eh? So be it. I'll give you the qualities of a snake. You won't be able to do anything without using stealth, deception, and lies, just like a snake in the grass. You will be hated and avoided by most of the rest of creation and, just like I'm taking the legs off this snake so that he has to crawl on his belly, you too will be brought low in relationship to everything else." (It don't pay to mess with Creator!) You have to admit the punishment fits the crime!

    And was he brought low? Yu betcha! Sure, he has manufactured a reputation for himself that is like John Wayne toilet paper (rough, tough, and takes crap off nobody), but the reality is far different. Consider this:

    1. All we puny humans have to do is stand up and resist him and he runs like a scared jack rabbit. (James 4:7)

    2. We have the authority to get sustenance from the animals, but he has to not only ask permission, but needs to beg for it too. (Luke 8:30-33)

    3. And best of all, we humans have the authority to expose him for what he really is, and make him a laughing stock in the eyes of the entire universe. (Proverbs 27:11)

    Okay, peeplezs, it's yore turn. Poke holes in it. (Grin)

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