A Sneaky Way To Mess With Watchtower Statistics

by DT 35 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  ziddina

  I agree with Jim of Texas...

  I suspect that there's already a LOT of dishonesty within the numbers reporting game that the Watchtower Corporation uses...

  And I also suspect that all those "Polly Pioneers" are among the worst offenders... And probably the elders, too...

  The Watchtower Corporation is swimming in quicksand as it is. Without drastic changes in the next few years, their decline may accellerate.

  Unfortunately, it probably won't help get mind-controlled, blinded members out, er, well, not at first...

  That is the main issue. How to get loved ones out of the cult before it does even more damage.

  Focus on THAT issue, and I think you WILL see the Watchtower collapse - or become a more obviously-empty shell...
• 

  factfinder

  People on jwn complain how dishonest the wts has been. Yet here are people who advocate being dishonest.

  Dishonesty is wrong.

  I am beginning to distrust a number of people who post on jwn...
• 

  factfinder

  I can't believe the amount of dishonesty that is being suggested here. How can you complain that the WTS are lying and being dishonest and then you do the same thing?

  Anony Mous- taking large amounts of books and magazines from the KH and destroying them is theft. There would also be a limit to how much literature you are allowed to take.

  This thread is making me question the honesty of people on jwn. There are 2 sides to every story-I'm only seeing one side.

  I became a witness because I WANTED to become one and I left because I WANTED to leave. My brother remains a witness because he WANTS to be one.

  But even if it is as some post here, you feel you have friends and family who are "trapped" in the cong who really want to leave but can't , I still am against lying and stealing.

  The posts on this thread are very discouraging to me. More and more I wonder if I belong on JWN?
• 

  ziddina

  It's called anti-"Theocratic Warfare", fact finder...

  When one looks at the amount of BLOOD on the Watchtower's hands,

  Organ transplants forbidden for at least 10 years;

  Whole-blood transfusions forbidden for AT LEAST 50 - 60 years;

  German brothers and sisters left to the 'tender' mercies of Adolph Hitler - because the drunken sot in charge of the Watchtower at the time failed in his attempt to 'kiss up' to Hitler - and all so the Watchtower could maintain control over their ASSETS in Germany;

  Malawian brothers and sisters thrown to the wolves while the Mexican brothers were allowed to BRIBE THE MEXICAN OFFICIALS so as to make it look like the MEXICAN BROTHERS HAD ALREADY SERVED IN THE ARMY;

  United States brothers forced to go to prison rather than choose "alternative service" during WWII, the Korean War and the Vietnam War - I personally knew at least TWO brothers who had to go to prison during the Vietnam war, due to the Watchtower's hard-hearted disregard for the welfare OF THEIR OWN PEOPLE;

  And all of that doesn't even BEGIN to touch their financial and political scandals -

  membership in the U.N. while calling it the 'horned beast with seven heads and ten horns' of Revelation;

  the parking fee scam run on 'worldly'-owned convention centers in the United States;

  milking elderly Witnesses to turn over their houses, jewels, stocks and bonds, and other material possessions to the Watchtower upon their deaths - rather than passing it on to their natural heirs;

  their current real-estate scam wherein they 'loan' brothers the money to 'quick-build' a kingdom hall, charge INTEREST on the loan, and then REQUEST THAT OWNERSHIP OF THE KINGDOM HALL BE TURNED BACK OVER TO WATCHTOWER CORPORATION...!!!!!

  Such hypocritical monsters deserve to be force-fed their own lies back through their teeth... However, I suspect that their lies are what will ultimately destroy them. But with the depth of dishonesty and depravity that the Watchtower Corporation has shown, I would never criticize someone who feels that use of dishonesty in dealing with the Watchtower corporation may be necessary...

  The Watchtower Corporation has been begging for harsh justice for over a hundred years... They deserve the same harsh so-called "justice" that they've shown to others, in their kangaroo courts euphemistically called "judicial committees"...

  Have you even cracked open that copy of "Crisis of Conscience" that I sent you? Or did you just destroy it? You should have learned about some of these issues from Ray Franz' book, at the very least...

  Zid
• 

  DT

  factfinder,

  Suppose you had a family member who was kidnapped. The kidnappers contact you and tell you not to call the police and begin telling you their demands. You decide that you should call the police. They work with you and and instruct you to take the calls and pretend like you haven't spoken to the police and carry on other deceptions.

  Yes, this is lying, but is it wrong? How can an organization who commits crimes against people and families expect total honesty from the people they are oppressing, especially if they will use this information to cause further harm?

  The Watchtower Society gathers information to control their members. I feel it is completely justified to interfere with this. I think it is also appropriate to interfere with their distribution of harmful magazines to an unsuspecting public.

  If the Watchtower Society would just let people leave with dignity and without sanctions, then it might be a different story. But, they have to realise that people who are trapped will fight back.
• 

  Terry

  Let's look at this historically in a wider context.

  Christianity was begun with a kitchen timer ticking in the background: tick tick tick tick. Jesus was on his way back and he was coming quickly!

  Everybody acted as though THIS WORLD did not matter because the BETTER WORLD would wipe away all tears any minute now!

  But, how long can you wait on Godot?

  How long will you sit at the bus stop without a bus coming?

  Are you crazy enough to sit there until you drop dead?

  So, eventually, Christianity blinked back their disappointments and decided....just MAYBE...something was required a bit more productive.

  Instead of hunkering down and fending off blows by persecutors and remaining "faithful unto death"....Christians became activists.

  Some organized an institution known as the universal church: (Catholic).

  They organized, created doctrines, orthodoxies and got involved in politics.

  Some variation of that just kept happening even after the Protestant revolution and the splintering of christianity into denominations.

  Statistics is a last ditch attempt to convince yourself and others that PROGRESS of some kind is happening!

  Ever heard of Pilgrim's Progress?

  Protestant Puritans thought, for awhile, they could build a christian Utopia and all the world would willingly convert!

  America was a "Shining City on a Hill"....until the Civil War, at least.

  Then, the Adventists came along and eventually Jehovah's Witnesses with their bogus twist on JESUS IS COMING SOON (JESUS IS ALREADY HERE.)

  iT ALL boils down to disappointment that NOTHING has changed and nothing ever will.

  They tell the same urgent and optimistic stories and stay busy busy busy.
• 

  ziddina

  Good posts, DT and Terry!

  But, Terry...

  "But, how long can you wait on Godot? ..."

  Shouldn't that be "Godiot"???
• 

  factfinder

  @ziddina-

  you mention a number of things that the wts has taught that have caused much harm to certain ones who obeyed them. I am not too familiar with the parking lot scam you mention. I feel it is right for the WTS to own the KH- I always did- this protects it from being being used for other purposes in the unlikly event that a cong want to make up their own religion or convert it into a church or some other religious building. But it is wrong of them to charge interest , yes.

  The wts has been responsible for treating its members badly, yes.

  I am sorry you think I would destroy the COC book you sent me. It was very nice of you to send it to me! I have read thus far up to page 289. Of course I would not destroy it! I learned alot about how organizational procedures supercede scriptures when the GB make decisions. I do not condone any wrongdoing on the part of the GB and what Ray described happening to those brothers who were disfellowshipped based on hearsay is similar to something I saw in a cong I was in. An elder, who was studying with me at the time and who I had grown quite fond of was on vacation in Florida for 5 weeks. There had been a book study held in his house where I attended. Of course while he was gone, the meeting was held at the KH. Meanwhile, elders were plotting to get him removed as an elder. The brother had stuck up for the CO in a recent major despute between the PO and the CO. The PO resented the brother. So he managed to get the other elders on his side and tried to get various ones in the cong to make complaints against the brother so they could have evidence that he should not be an elder. They even tried to get me to make complaints against the brother! Of course I flat out refused and for my siding with the brother the PO would no longer allow me to give talks on the TMS or aux pioneer. (I put the time in anyway even without the signed AP application.) Only 2 elders felt what was happenning was wrong. But they were afraid of losing their positions too and weakly gave in telling me "the body must speak in unity".

  When the brother got home from vacation, the BS was not put back in his house, the elders told him there were serious accusations against him and that he should resign as an elder. He rightly refused. This led to the PO getting a committee of 3 elders from elsewhere to hold a meeting about the matter. Nine of us, me included, went to the KH that night to speak in the brother's behalf. We were not allowed to say anything to the committee or sit in on the meeting. However, an elder I knew from another congregation who did not get along with the brother was there, and they let HIM in the back room to talk to the committee! The result? After awhile- those of us who were waiting to speak in the brother's defense were told we should go home. I stayed. The elder later came out of the meeting with tears running down his face. I felt so bad for him. He told me "its over'. He felt all his years of service to Jehovah had been stripped from him. Later at the KH The elder who announced that brother was deleted as an elder did so with a SMILE on his face. I was mad as hell. Another elder told me it was politics. They justified it by claiming the elder body must be at unity in everything, even against the CO! I was so disgusted and discouraged. The brother never resumed his study with me and ended up moving to Florida. The CO told me it was a kangaroo court and he could not do anything to change the decision-I felt the CO wimped out. I left that cong and went to another one. What they did behind that brothers back came back to me when I read Ray's description of what took place at Bethel- same thing.

  So yes, Ziddina- I have been reading the book! My vision is poor and I can read only so much at a time but I read much of it by lanternlight during the 7 days we had no power! Please don't think I did not read the book and why would you think I'd destroy it? I would not do that.

  I cannot condone the wrong doing on the part of the GB. But when people who are upset by the dishonesty of the wts, themselves resort to dishonesty- it makes me wonder who I can believe?

  Some people hate the wts so much they make up lies about them (koolaidman comes to mind). I just want to base my descisions on what is true. I try to be very objective regarding the WTS.
• 

  factfinder

  DT-

  - you are right about the kidnapping case. But my brother and I were not kidnapped-we both chose to become witnesses (and I chose to leave.)

  I agree the wts should just let people leave and not shun those who do.

  Regarding the literature- I still feel taking large amounts of literature from the KH in order to throw it out or destroy it is theft.

  In the cong I was in you would not be allowed to take many books and I am sure it will raise suspicion if a publisher starts taking alot of magazines.

  We have a different viewpoint regarding relatives in the cong. My brother is a zeolous pioneer and WANTS to be one.

  In all fairness however, I cannot relate to someone who has relatives in the cong who WANT to leave but feel they can't and are very unhappy as that is not anything that I have experienced.

  I very much like the society's printing operations. ( Not the wrong teachings or policies). I like the wt literature . I may not agree with much that is presented in it anymore, but I read other magazines too even though I don't agree with much that they present either.

  Thank you for explaining your reasons for feeling what you suggest doing is justified. While I disagree with you on the rightfulness of what you suggest I do feel sorry for you and others who may feel "trapped" in the cong. I just cannot relate to it. Perhaps if I was in your position I'd feel the same way. I'm trying to be objective.
• 

  factfinder

  Terry- you are right- NOTHING HAS CHANGED. This is why the Bible and Jesus' ransom are just academic to me now. If it is true or not true- nothing happens! We do not benefit from Jesus' sacrifice. Nothing has happened or will. I grew tired of waiting for a paradise earth I won't see.