An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

by AK - Jeff 1495 Replies latest jw experiences

still thinking

So... do you think that God sent that tsunami to kill those people?
I dont know...I don't even know if there is a god....but I'm pretty sure I already said that...you wouldn't be deflecting it back to me now would you tec? All i know is that your proof is based on things you believe to be true...which is no proof whatsoever...and yet you state things as facts.
And since we know that tsunamis and other major events in nature occur with or without humans around, what reason is there to believe that God sent that tsunami?
I don't know...you tell me...you seem to KNOW for sure...but based on the bible...he has done this before hasn't he...what else do I have to base it on? Your belief? Which I should believe because ....you say so? If we are going to talk about what god will and won't do...how can we base it on your belief? ...would you base something on my belief?
***edit****oh, I really opened myself up to....'no, don't take my word for it...go to the source'...didn't I?
and around and around it goes....
tec

All i know is that your proof is based on things you believe to be true...which is no proof whatsoever...and yet you state things as facts.
What proof?
Knowledge is not always based on proof, but often upon evidence. It can be wrong, and I can certainly be wrong. All that I have stated, is that from what I know, looking at Christ, God did not send that tsunami, and I have zero reason to believe that he did.
The only reason I made the statement that God did not send a tsunami is because Cofty and I were talking about why God did not stop an evil, such as the tsunami, when Cofty changed the argument from 'not stopping something' to 'doing something'. I was just reminding him that we were talking about why God didn't stop the tsunami.
Which I should believe because ....you say so? If we are going to talk about what god will and won't do...how can we base it on your belief? ...would you base something on my belief?
I believe I suggested that you look at the evidence yourself, and draw your own conclusions. I gave you mine. Why are you looking at me to know the truth about God? I can't show you that? I can only bear witness to the One who can. If you want to see God, then look at His Truth, His Image, His Word.
I am none of those things.
Peace,
tammy
still thinking

***edit****oh, I really opened myself up to....'no, don't take my word for it...go to the source'...didn't I?...still thinking
Why are you looking at me to know the truth about God? I can't show you that? I can only bear witness to the One who can. If you want to see God, then look at His Truth, His Image, His Word....tec
Yup...there it is...LOL
Why are you on here telling us anything then tec? Why not leave it to god? Are you his reprsentative? Can't he do his own work? If he wants to talk to us he will won't he?
Here you are telling us what god does and doesn't do...but then telling us not to listen to you....good deflection.
What makes you think I think you know the truth about god anyway? Did I start a thread saying ....tec... how do you know? I don't think so.
You are commenting...I am commenting back...don't make yourself out to be more than than you are....you just happen to talk the most about god. I don't ask people questions because I think they KNOW...I ask to get there perspective. But when they start stating things as fact...I ask how they know that. You state lots of things...so people ask you questions.
tec

Why are you on here telling us anything then tec? Why not leave it to god? Are you his reprsentative? Can't he do his own work? If he wants to talk to us he will won't he?
I bear witness to Christ. But Christ is the representative of God, not Tammy. You could look to Christ yourself. But you are asking questions here, and if I have an answer to share, based on my knowledge of Christ, then I share it. In no way does this usurp Christ... or you looking to Christ, yourself.

Here you are telling us what god does and doesn't do...but then telling us not to listen to you....good deflection.
I tell you what I know about God based on my knowledge of His Word. You are the one asking if I e x pect you to take my word for it:
Which I should believe because ....you say so?... Still?
I have never said this, and merely emphasize once again, that no... you should not believe just because I say so.
I am not making myself out to be more than I am at all. Just responding to questions like the above that you ask me.
I don't ask people questions because I think they KNOW...I ask to get there perspective
And I gave you mine.
I said, according to my knowledge of Christ who is the image of God, God did not send the tsunami. Nor is there any reason to think that he did.
I stand by that statement ... in the same way that a woman can know if her child or spouse is capable of some terrible crime. If you know that person, truly know them by their words and their deeds, then you know of their innocence or guilt. Of course, this knowledge of them can be wrong if that person has been living and breathing a lie; and perhaps you did not see that this about them.
Peace,
tammy
Qcmbr

Tec - do you ever realise that what you say cannot be correct? Let me put forward a fatal flaw in your thinking.
Natural world without a god
1 natural events occur and sometimes directly or indirectly kill or injure.
2 no supernatural events have been reliably recorded in history of anything stopping those events
3 death and injury only occur because of natural processes
Supernatural world with a christian god
1 there are no natural events it merely appears that way by permission of the supernatural. At any moment the world can be commanded to act differently. Nothing happens therefore without gods tacit approval. Natural looking events that kill and maim occur because the supernatural world either willed them to or allowed chaos conditions to manifest and then allowed the event to occur.
2 all events are permissions of or caused by the supernatural world
3 death and injury are directly caused by a supernatural event in a garden that god knew would occur, encouraged and planned for , utilising the same processes ( pain and death ) to scapegoat a supposed perfect being several thousand years later.
Your defence of god is not backed up by logic, evidence, your holy books ( however much you cherry pick from them ) or by your completely fabricated new creature you fall back to when you don't have an answer. The Christ you describe is not found in your bible or anywhere in recorded history ergo there is only one place that he got described - your head. Very frustrating talking to someone who despite all evidence privileges an illogical imaginary friend over real friends and will describe black as white to maintain the inner picture.
If your Christ has any power in the natural world and allows innocent newborn babies ( so no sin or things to learn ) to be starved, tortured, maimed or killed by natural events then it can only mean he chose to do nothing. He sat on his hands. Either your Christ won't help, can't help or doesn't exist. If that is your loving Christ then you maybe need to have a good think about why you are so morally flawed as to worship such a being.
Sorry to be harsh.
AK - Jeff

I have seen no argument to refute the premise of this thread.
Evil exists. A loving, omnipotent, omniscient being would not allow it.
Not to say that a powerful being doesn't exist - although I personally see no evidence of that - but if he does, sorry Tammy, he is much more likely to resemble your image of Satan, than he does your image of 'GOD'.
He sits up there just watching suffering and evil for tens of thousands of years, taking no action to stop or correct it. He is as far removed from what your mythical Jesus hero describes as is possible. [Or at least what you interpret your mythical Jesus hero to have said.]
But then what else should be expected from this Biblical god? He killed millions, ordered his people to pillage and rape, constantly beat his chest as 'Lord' and killed anyone who dared cross him.
Again - Satan seems like a much nicer guy, and if you want to use your book to determine 'who' to worship, you might consider changing sides.
Jeff
still thinking

You could look to Christ yourself. But you are asking questions here, and if I have an answer to share, based on my knowledge of Christ, then I share it. In no way does this usurp Christ... or you looking to Christ, yourself. ...tec
Yes I could, or to budda, allah, Isis, El, Krishna...or any number of gods or representatives out there. But according to you we should look to Christ.
All i know is that your proof is based on things you believe to be true...which is no proof whatsoever...and yet you state things as facts...still
What proof? ....tec
Ok, let me rephrase that using you're words...
Knowledge is not always based on proof, but often upon evidence. It can be wrong, and I can certainly be wrong. All that I have stated, is that from what I know...tec
All i know is that your evidence is based on things you believe to be true...you have no evidence whatsoever...and yet you state things as facts.....still
tec

Yes I could, or to budda, allah, Isis, El, Krishna...or any number of gods or representatives out there. But according to you we should look to Christ.
Well, I can only tell you what I know. Christ is who I know. I do not know Buddha or Isis or Krishna... (though as far as I know, El and Allah and Jahveh are the same... different names; different ways of viewing Him, depending upon the source you look at to show Him)
From your quote of my quote above... you left off where I draw my evidence and source from:
All that I have stated, is that from what I know, looking at Christ, God did not send that tsunami, and I have zero reason to believe that he did.
I have never stated that I have proof of anything. Only that Christ is the evidence I look toward to know if God would or would not do something. I can of course be wrong, as I have also stated. I am not infallible. But I still have zero reason to believe that God sent that tsunami, and Christ as evidence to show me that He did not.
Peace,
tammy
still thinking

you left off where I draw my evidence and source from:...tec
LOL thats because it doesn't really matter where it is from...it is not evidence.
tec

Q:
Supernatural world with a christian god
1 there are no natural events it merely appears that way by permission of the supernatural. At any moment the world can be commanded to act differently. Nothing happens therefore without gods tacit approval. Natural looking events that kill and maim occur because the supernatural world either willed them to or allowed chaos conditions to manifest and then allowed the event to occur.
All assumption. (I believe none of this, and have no reason to at that)
2 all events are permissions of or caused by the supernatural world
If by permissions of... you mean non-interference, then yes, I agree with this statement. I mean, it pretty much covers all the choices, lol.
3 death and injury are directly caused by a supernatural event in a garden that god knew would occur, encouraged and planned for , utilising the same processes ( pain and death ) to scapegoat a supposed perfect being several thousand years later.
Again, all sorts of assumptions and conclusions that are opinion and interpretaton.
Your defence of god is not backed up by logic, evidence, your holy books ( however much you cherry pick from them ) or by your completely fabricated new creature you fall back to when you don't have an answer.
My God is the Father of Christ... shown by Christ, His Word and Truth and Image, as stated even in that holy book.
The Christ you describe is not found in your bible or anywhere in recorded history ergo there is only one place that he got described - your head.
He is absolutely described in the bible. The bible even states that He is the Truth. That if you see Him, then you see God. Funny, the book never states that if you read the OT, then you see God. Only through Christ.
Very frustrating talking to someone who despite all evidence privileges an illogical imaginary friend over real friends and will describe black as white to maintain the inner picture.
You state a lot of things, but you never get around to acknowledging that Christ is the image and Truth of God. It is really very simple. Not nearly as difficult as religion and men would have you believe. And did have you believe.
Peace,
tammy

An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

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