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A Question for those who have trust in the Bible/Jesus..
by The Quiet One 94 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Larsinger58
To understand the accounts you have to think like a Jew and also consider the culture. Look how many Marys there are. This culture is similar to some Latin American cultures where Marys and Jesuses and Juans are extremely common and favorite names. Same here.
The key is to pay close attention to the timing. There are three distinct times. And there are three Mary Magdalenes, which might have been a title of a housekeeper or "maid"/companion. So what we are observing first is an extreme commoness of the name Mary (Marion). Even with the three different MMs arriving at three different times, when she wasn't alone she was in the company of another Mary! So the accounts are not in conflict, they are given in detail because there were three Mary Magdalenes who were in the close company of Jesus. So let's go over this.
The first MM arrived while it was still dark. She was alone and associated with the house of John and Peter. She was the one from whom Jesus expelled seven demons. Again, note the time. It was "early" meaning during the early morning watch (3 a.m. to sunrise) but whlie it was still dark. She had no spices and she saw Jesus in the garden. She was told to tell the others and she did.
The second MM to arrived during the "early" morning watch, but it was beginning to get light. She was accompanied by another "Mary", Mary the Other. These two were together before to view the tomb. They did not have spices. The angels dispatched them to tell others that Jesus had risen but they happened to run into Jesus on the road. A totally separate event.
The third MM was attached to the household of Jesus' personal relatives who were responsible for the care of the bodies. This group started out just before sunrise but did not arrive until after the sun at actually risen. These did bring spices for the body. This MM must have been a servant in the household of Jesus' mother, Mary, or her rich sister, Salome. They did not see Jesus and were too frightened to tell anyone about the angels they had seen.
This is what was I saying about "thinking like a Jew." A Jew, if he heard these three different accounts would not have to be told there were three different Mary Magdalenes, they would know by the specific times and specific varying circumstances. Plus those back then would have known about the triplet Magdalenes. Now think about that. If you knew up front there were coincidentally three different Mary Magdalenes, you'd be confused if some details were not given to identify which came to the tomb when. Even so, in the Jewish culture, which is one of wit and few words, it would be redundant to explain what they would consider the obvious, which is that there were three Mary Magdalenes who came to visit the tomb, each at a different time.
A simple solution. But there is still a strong cultural bias against this obvious explanation, even though, as noted, the name "Mary" was extremely common in this culture. So three Mary Magdalenes in the company of those who cared for Jesus might have been a bit unusual or quite common; we can't tell for sure. Also, those in that culture would have paid a little more attention to the specific times of these events--clearly three different times.
So, as often is the case, cultural bias or lack of imagination makes some things in the Bible seem contradictory when the problem is with the reader and not the gospels.
One of my curiousities is that some attempt to explain and harmonize three different accounts, some better than others, but the idea that there were three different Mary Magdalenes doesn't seem to occur to them for some reason. ?? It just shows that understanding some things in the Bible must take into consideration the culture! Some don't bother putting this into the cultural context and so the account seems in conflict a bit.
Another good example of this is the date of Jesus death (not to worry, I'm not starting a new topic!). In the Jewish culture, the passover meal is eaten on the sabbath day of the first day of unfermented cakes! They know the lambs are killed on the 14th beginning around 3 p.m. The 14th is a day of preparation. But when sunset arrives, it becomes the sabbath of the 15th, the 1st day of unfermented cakes. So in their minds, they never would be confused that it was still preparation. They would understand it was the sabbath and Jesus was arrested on the sabbath. In 33 CE they would have in their mind this was Saturday. So when the Bible says later that Jesus died on the day of preparation, their mind would have automatically jumped to that following Thursday, which was the next day of preparation that week.
But many Christians, including and especially JWs, who have this biased disdain for everything Jewish, don't pay close attention to the formal customs or timekeeping and so get confused when the account is not elaborate enough to clue them in on specific times. This, again, reflects on my comment about "thinking like a Jew." A Jew knows passover is eaten on the sabbath day of the 1st day of UFC. Christians don't have this clear in mind and often think passover is eaten on the day of preparation. So a Jew would not be confused in the least that Jesus died on Thursday, Nisan 20th, but Christians confused about Jewish formal customs might and do, as do JWs.
In CONCLUSION, there is every reason to have complete confidence in the gospel accounts of the three Mary Magdalenes that came to the tomb of Jesus at three different times--that alone is a clue you are dealing with three different women with the same name. Of course, another problem is that many feel the gospels are not specific or reliable, so when they see an apparent or presumptive conflict, they don't pursue seeking a resolution, they just put their hands on their hips, shake their heads back and forth and say, "ah, yes, yet another textual contradiction in this imperfect and inaccurate account!"
But if you're spiritual minded and you see what seems to be a conflict and you know there is a solution and you pursue it deligently, sometimes the conflict is resolved as in this case. Perhaps holy spirit will help you find the answer, in which case, all is well!
Just in passing, another commonly misunderstood account is where Jesus told Peter he would deny him three times before a cock crowed in one place and in another three times before a cock crowed twice. What you do is harmonize the two and realize Jesus told him both things: that he would betray him three times before a cock crowed ones and another three times before a cock crowed twice. That's what happened if you follow the accounts. He denied Jesus three times on his way in and up until a cock crowed ones. We all know how soon a cock will crow again. After the cock crowed, Peter felt remorse and immediately tried to leave. But he had to pass by a lot of people and there was girl accusing him as he left, so he ended up denying Jesus another three times before he could get outside the compound. By the time he did finally get out a cock crowed a second time and he had denied Jesus another three times.
So the gospels are reliable and the way they are written sometimes makes it seems there are small conflicts when they are not. Modern Christian incompetence, cultural bias or even poor translation explain a lot of the "contradictions" they think are there, but are not.
LS
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Larsinger58
MAD SWEENEY:
Point one: The Bible has a significant amount of false, incorrect, or non-factual information in it.
Point 15: This is a perfect example of someone who doesn't know WTF they are talking about and thus cannot prove a single claim.
Don't believe me? Accept the challenge and point out your best contradiction; and I don't mean issues of CONTEXT, for instance, where in one part of the Bible is says, "there is one but one god and one lord" and in another it says, "there are many gods and many lords." You, come up with something substantiative, like in this case, the same MM coming to the grave three different times with different groups of people, until you realize the gospels are giving the three accounts for those who knew there were three different MMs in Jesus' support group, etc.
Thanks.
LS
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The Quiet One
This is the main thing I can't explain away myself... The Matthew account describes the women (plural) meeting Jesus while heading away from the tomb and throwing THEMselves at his feet, which must have been directly after the first visit to the tomb according to the context, especially if you believe Mark's account because in Mark they were discussing who would roll the stone away, obviously on the 1st visit.. So John's account can't seem to be harmonised because it says that it was Mary's at least 2nd visit to the tomb, returning after telling the apostles, when Mary met Jesus.. And Matthew's account would have to be the second visit, to make sense of just Mary having met Jesus first, but it can't have been, because the women were on their way to tell the men what they'd seen, and also Mary would have known that the stone had already been moved away if it were a 2nd visit. The point is that the Mark account says that Mary Magdalene met the resurrected Jesus FIRST, not other women as mentioned in Matthew.. In my view, if you then try to claim that Mark 16:9 shouldn't be believed, that leaves you with another major problem.. Mark 16:8 says that the women told 'nobody anything', with no further qualifier to say that they only remained silent for a time or something, and that was how Mark chose to end his account? Seems to me that the end was tacked on to make the accounts look like they didn't contradict. The short conclusion I've read in the NWT seems too abrupt, it doesn't mention the women going to the apostles, they're just there.. No doubt I've missed something, though ;) http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2016:9&version=NIV http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2028:1-11&version=NIV
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The Quiet One
Psac-- The OP was a sincere question. Do you think that I have nothing better to do than attack Christianity? I genuinely didn't think of conflicting eyewitness accounts being more believable than identical ones, although I still don't understand how anyone can put faith in anything after they've been deceived before, but that's just me..
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PSacramento
Psac-- The OP was a sincere question. Do you think that I have nothing better to do than attack Christianity? I genuinely didn't think of conflicting eyewitness accounts being more believable than identical ones, although I still don't understand how anyone can put faith in anything after they've been deceived before, but that's just me..
Sincere question based on what though?
You raised issues that base don YOUR view of them, are conflicting and contridictory but which have been shown NOT to be the case.
If you truly want to get to the "bottom" of this "christianity thing" then there is some reading that I can suggest to you that will allow you to do that but if you are only looking to point out what you see as issues and problems and contridictions ( which have already been dealt with) then my question to you is: What are YOU hoping to accomplish with that?
You state that you don't understand how anyone can put faith in anything after they've been deciced before and THAT is a very valid question so allow me to answer this way:
How is one able to love another when they have been deceived before?
How is one able to trust when one has been deceived before?
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N.drew
It was MEN of the Watchtower who did the deceiving. The spirit can't lie. The WAY TRUTH LIFE if sought, you can't lose. I don't believe the Bible is the sole source of TRUTH. But for me, it is the qualifier.
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Larsinger58
There is no contradiction to the three encounters if we understand there are three different Mary Magdalenes, which is not impossible and likely not improbable when you consider the popularity of the name "Miriam"/Mary.
If someone introduces you to their grandchild, you don't wonder if that person had any children of their own. The gospels give three different encounters for MM at three different times. Either the gospels are confused for they are telling us there were three women called Mary Magdalene that came to the tomb. Your choice.
LS
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Lore
Trust Jesus?
Jesus promised an end to wickedness.
Odin promised an end to Frost Giants.
I don't see a lot of Frost Giants around do you?
Seriously though:
Point one: The Bible has a significant amount of false, incorrect, or non-factual information in it.
Accept the challenge and point out your best contradiction
He didn't say contradiction, he said non-factual. Spider Man may not contain any contradictions, but it's non-factual insofar as there was never a guy with spider powers zipping around New York fighting a giant sand monster.
As far as non-factual things. . . take your pick.
There was not a global flood 4,500 years ago which wiped out the entire human population save for 8 people and their millions of animals.
There was not a famine earthwide 4,000 years ago in which people from ALL OVER THE WORLD came to Egypt to buy food for 7 years.
There was not a mass exodus of Jews from Egypt who wandered around in the wilderness for 40 years.
There was not a day in which the 'sun stood still in the sky' for an extra 24 hours in all of human history.
Those are pretty much confirmed to be not true. You're free to assert some or all of these are symbolic, or the text was exaggerating about the scale. . . and honestly I'd prefer that over you actually believing any of that.
But if these were symbolic or exaggerated, why does the Bible present it as historical fact?
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N.drew
Please Lore, where did Jesus say he promised an end to wickedness?