Thanks your comments everyone. I enjoy hearing different perspectives about the bible. I'm not even sure my JW fam will even talk to me this weekend, but if they do I want to be ready.
What did Jesus mean at Matthew 10:34-36?
by serenitynow! 73 Replies latest watchtower bible
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AGuest
Does all posts about the bible have to be like this? what is wrong with some of you people?
Seeing as the apostles themselves didn't understand the scriptures... until Christ himself opened up their meaning TO such ones (Luke 24:27, 32, 44, 45)... I don't see why anything different should be expected of others, dear Bio (peace to you!). Excluding those who claim to "see" (but do not)... and "seat themselves in the seat of Moses" as a result, of course.
Salvation is based on an individual basis, not family, or church.
Not a church (religion), no; however, the first part of your statement is an error. A very serious one... as it absolutely DOES cover family. Noah's faith saved his family: his wife, his sons, AND his DILs. Abraham's faith... saved not only his entire immediate family... but it is because of HIS faith that ALL Israel will be saved. Both Cornelius' and Rahab's faith... saved their families, including non-core relatives. Cornelius' faith even saved some of his friends. Zechariah's faith... resulted in a blessing to his son, John (the Baptizer). Genesis 7:1;22:15-18; Joshua 2:9, 12-14, 18, 19; 6:22, 23; Luke 1:13-17; Acts 10:4, 24; Romans 11:26
This is because the PROMISE... is for the Body... and their children. Acts 2:39 EVEN if those children... are adults. Why? Because of the priestly function of the Body: their PRAYERS... are "sacrifices". Thus, they can ASK... that their HOUSEHOLDS be saved... and, have FAITH that it will. As all of these... and many others... did and do. Job 1:5; Revelation 5:8; 8:3, 4
Its each man for himself.
Oooh, you have been misled, dear one. It is every man... for himself/herself... and his/her flesh. Meaning his/her spouse(s) and children. Tell me: what is the POINT... of being resurrected to LIFE... if the ones you LOVE are NOT? You do not know the True God... nor, apparently, His Son. For example, for whose faith was the son of the widow from Nain resurrected? His? Or... hers? He was dead, so... Luke 7:11-15
I would suggest you read the whole chapter to get what Jesus was saying.
You would be wise to take your own suggestion here, dear one... rather than coming down on dear Serenity (peace to you!) as you have. Because from where I'm sitting, your sight is not much brighter.
Its about being able to stand for the faith in truth no matter the circumstances you face. Father being turned against son shows the severity of the times we are headed into.
While the first part of this is accurate, it is not just the times we are headed into. It is the times... from when my Lord ascended... until his return. The Body must stand FIRM... in HIM (the Truth)... until he returns. John 14:6; 15:1-10
Selfisness had become the order of the day now, people merely think about others apart from themselves. Even brothers are turned against each other for that sake of vain things (wealth, fame, power).
Again, it has been that way for some time... and will continue... until Christ returns. It is not a new phenomena (indeed, it was one of Israel's problems, prompting them to need to be given the Law writing... on STONE - because they repeatedly showed they did not have it written on their hearts!). Both Adham and his first son, Cain, demonstrated selfishness... thinking about others apart from themselves. Heck, they really didn't think about others, but ONLY themselves...
But in all we should be able to stand for the truth and await the reward.
For the truth... and IN the truth... yes. However, your attempt to "chastise" dear Seren in the manner you have for not getting this is... what? She asked a sincere question. Would not the [New] Law of prompt YOU to respond... in LOVE... and not in snide disdain?
One thing many JW's don't realise is that the WT teach that its each man for himself when it comes to salvation/judgement.
And they're wrong. Two statements shows this:
1. "Am I my brother's keeper?" Genesis 4:9
2. "No one has GREATER love than this... that someone should surrender HIS soul... in behalf of his friends!" John 15:13
Since love is the [Old] Law's fulfillment... and the basis of the NEW Law... those who claim to follow Christ should be willing (i.e., "want") to give up their own lives... so that those they LOVE... can live. While one cannot work out the salvation of another by HIS works... he may be able to do so by his FAITH. Simply by asking... with the KNOWLEDGE that the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies... IS merciful... and can/will show mercy to WHOMEVER He wishes it. If, then, His Son asks for mercy for US... should WE not follow in his "footsteps"... and ask it... IN FAITH... for others?
The truth can only come from the word of God (bible)
And here is why you exist in the error you do:
The Bible... is NOT the Word of God. Only One is... and the truth can only come from that One. Because HE... IS the truth. John 1:1, 14; Revelation 19:13; John 14:6; 17:17; Hebrews 13:12
Please, dear one... know YOUR Bible... and what it SAYS... before you undertake to bring those who admit they DON'T know... and ask for assistance.
and not through any church or organisation.
Unfortunately, other than your comment about standing in the truth and awaiting the reward this is the only other thing, in your entire response, that is accurate.
May YOU hear, then... and get the sense of what I have been permitted to share with YOU, here (Acts 18:24-26). May you also be given ears to hear... if you so wish them... when the Spirit and the Bride say to YOU (Revelation 22:17):
"Come! Take 'life's water'...which "water" is the holy spirit of God, the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies (Psalm 68:4)... and is poured out from the inmost part of ONLY One, His Son and Christ, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (John 7:37-39)(MischaJah)... FREE!"
Again, peace to you!
YOUR servant, as I am servant to ALL those of the Household of God, Israel, and those who go with... and a slave of Christ,
SA
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Leolaia
The exegetical key would be to examine the inner-biblical context of this logion and the history of interpretation of the source text(s) in Second Temple Judaism. The author draws directly on Micah 7:4-6, so what we have in Matthew 10 is a conscious reinterpretation of the prophecy in that text, which foretells family discord in the eschatological Day of Yahweh. The adaptation of the Micaian oracle in Matthew posits Jesus as the agent of this discord, which noticeably contrasts with the prophecy in Malachi 4:5-6, which foretells that Elijah would return in advance of the Day of Yahweh to bring out family reconciliation. So whereas Elijah is the agent of eschatological family reconciliation, Jesus would be the agent of eschatological family disintegration. The prophecy in Malachi however is conditional: "He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction" (v. 6). The two prophecies may thus be harmonized by having Elijah bring about a temporary reconciliation which only delays the eschatological end. This is the perspective of Sirach, who sees the appointed judgment as inevitable and who prays for the day to be hastened (36:10-16), but which nonetheless will be slowed by Elijah: "At the appointed time, it is written, you [Elijah] are destined to calm the wrath of God before it breaks out in fury, to turn the hearts of parents to their children, and to restore the tribes of Jacob" (48:10).
Family disintegration, meanwhile, remained an expected feature of the degradation of society at the time of the eschatological judgment. So Jubilees (second century BC) expects that in the final evil generation, "children will reproach their parents and their elders on account of sin ... some of these will strive with others, youths with old men and old men with youths" (23:16-19), the Epistle of Enoch (first century BC) states that "in those days the father will be beaten together with his sons ... for a man shall not be able to withhold his hands from his sons nor from his sons' sons" (1 Enoch 100:1-2), the Book of Parables (early first century AD) states that "a man shall not recognize his brother nor a son his mother until there shall be a significant number of corpses" (1 Enoch 56:7), Pseudo-Philo (middle first century AD) states that "we will be scattered every man from his brother and in the last days we will be fighting one another" (6:1), 4 Ezra (late first century AD) says that at the end of the age "friends shall make war on friends like enemies and the earth and those who inhabit it shall be terrified" (6:24), 2 Baruch (late first century AD) states that "they will hate one another and provoke one another to fight" (70:3), and the eighth Sibylline Oracle (second century AD) foretells that "neither will parents be friendly to children nor children to parents" (line 84). All of these examples draw on the theme of discord in Micah 7:4-6 and depict it as occurring shortly before God's intervention in judgment. Matthew 10:34-39 makes a similar application and views family disintegration as not only something will happen at the close of the age, but something that Jesus has already set in motion (cf. 16:27-28, 24:34, 26:64 on the generation of Jesus as the final generation prior to the coming of the Son of Man in judgment). The same author also alludes to the prophecy in Malachi 4:5-6 ("Elijah does come and he is to restore all things," Matthew 17:12), and applies it to John the Baptist who preceded Jesus: "For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John and if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who is to come" (11:13-14), "I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they pleased" (17:12). So first John the Baptist came to bring restoration and reconciliation but his work was cut short; he is followed by Jesus who brings about discord which will continue until he comes in judgment as the Son of Man. This reflects the conditional nature of Malachi 4:5-6; the end of the age will come, and with John's work halted the age now draws inexoriably to its conclusion.
The nature of this family discord, meanwhile, is illuminated in the gospel narratives. Jesus is rejected in Nazareth when he preaches in the synagogue; the people exclaim, "Is this not the carpenter's son, is not his mother called Mary, and are not his brothers James and Joseph and Judas, and are not all his sisters with us?" (Matthew 13:55-57); Jesus then implies that his family rejects him when he states that a prophet is without honor "in his own house" (v. 57). The Markan version of the story states that "when his family heard it, they went outside to seize him, for people were saying, 'He is insane' " (Mark 3:21), and then when other people tell Jesus that "your mother and your brothers are outside asking for you", Jesus replies by saying that his followers are really the ones who are "my mother and my brothers" (v. 31-35). In the Lukan version of the story, "all in the synagogue were filled with wrath" and attempted to kill Jesus (4:28-29). This kind of synagogue experience prefigures the kind of family discord in Matthew 10:34-36. And so the closest parallel to this passage is found earlier in the same chapter in 10:16-23 regarding persecution in the synagogues and similar conflict:
Matthew 10:16-23: "Behold I send you as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. Beweare of men, for they will deliver you up to councils, and flog you in the synagogues, and you will be dragged before governors and kings for my sake, to bear testimony before them and the Gentiles. When they deliver you up, do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say, for what you are to say will be given to you in that hour, for it will not be you who will speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. Brother will deliver up brother to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death, and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes".
This describes the situation just prior to the coming of the Son of Man in judgment, a duration of time that is short (for his apostles will not exhaust the number of towns in the land). In the eschatological discourse in ch. 24, v. 10-12 pertain to the family discord prophesied in Micah. Jesus initiates the disintegration of families by making himself an object of hatred and by sending out his disciples to testify on his behalf. The plot of Judas Iscariot in the passion narrative involes the same themes of a man betraying a fellow brother to councils and governors, but here societal disintegration takes a more global scope (cf. Revelation which depicts the great tribulation in ch. 13 as involving "all the inhabitants of the earth" taking a stand for or against God). Although this represents exegetical reworkings of OT prophecy, the focus on persecution in the synagogues may well reflect the actual situation of Christians at the time the gospel of Matthew was published. The Birkat ha-Minim adopted after the Council of Jamnia (cf. the reference to the "cursing in your synagogues of those who believe in the Christ" in Justin Martyr, Dialogue 16) would have likely led to divisions in families attending synagogue, with Christians being cursed by their non-Christian family members. The expectation then was that this situation could worsen into the kind of conflict expected by Micah.
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tec
NEVER MIND MY PREVIOUS POST. My opinion on that one fell flat.
(((Nancy)))
That was funny :)
PSacramento pretty much summed up my thoughts and understanding as well, as per mine and Prodigal's discussion.
Chirst said that when we accept Him that He and Our Father will abide in Us and we in them.
Peace,
tammy
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bioflex
@Aguest:
Seeing as the apostles themselves didn't understand the scriptures... until Christ himself opened up their meaning TO such ones (Luke 24:27, 32, 44, 45)... I don't see why anything different should be expected of others, dear Bio (peace to you!). Excluding those who claim to "see" (but do not)... and "seat themselves in the seat of Moses" as a result, of course.
i was actually reffereing to Sixofnine there, not the thread opener(Serenity). you should see his post.
Not a church (religion), no; however, the first part of your statement is an error. A very serious one... as it absolutely DOES cover family. Noah's faith saved his family:
Well, you are the wrong one here, the reason why Noah's family was saved too was because like Noah they had not infected themselves with the Nephillim / Sons of God. Their genes were clean. They would not have been saved if they mingled themselves with the Nephilim.
A more practical exmaple would be Lot's wife, what happened to her when she turned back? yep, a pillar of salt. Thats because we are all to account for our actions individually. That does not mean we should leave others to perish in their ignorance.
Both Cornelius' and Rahab's faith... saved their families, including non-core relatives. Cornelius' faith even saved some of his friends. Zechariah's faith... resulted in a blessing to his son, John (the Baptizer)
Again, i am refering to the salvation of eternal life, not some good deed that benefits another. You CANNOT earn eternal salvation for family or friend.
And here is why you exist in the error you do:
The Bible... is NOT the Word of God. Only One is... and the truth can only come from that One. Because HE... IS the truth. John 1:1, 14; Revelation 19:13; John 14:6; 17:17; Hebrews 13:12
Please, dear one... know YOUR Bible... and what it SAYS... before you undertake to bring those who admit they DON'T know... and ask for assistance.
Well there you go, IF the bible is not the word of God, then there is no hope for mankind, then all that we have heard about Christ is a lie.
2Ti 3:15 - 17 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
The reason why many of you err in understanding the bible is because you wan to use the knowledge of man to justify the work of God. That is why many cant accept the fact that God created the world in 6 literal days. And many argue about the global flood of Noah's day.
Isa 55:8 - 9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
In case you did not know, you can't accept a part of the bible and reject another. Its either you are fully for God or not for Him. Perhaps you should go read the bible on what God says about people who are neither cold nor hot
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bioflex
@Prodigalson :
The truth is, humanity never lost it. Your first mistake is taking Genesis literally, and even when you do you can't see the truth of it.
The serpent is not the bad guy, Jehoover is.
The Divine Spark, the True Self that is already within you is a piece of God Himself, the True One.
Well if i didnt know better i would have been bothered by your post, Your post says it all about you. the DIVINE SPARK? SOFIA ? GOD WITHIN? you have much to learn about the Gospel.
The Truth Behind Hip-Hop 1-6 , you should see it.
and this too
http://watchmanvideobroadcast.com
http://watchmanvideobroadcast.com/video/watchman-video-broadcast-05-15-11
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transhuman68
You see, this is the problem: we look back in time 2,000 years ago, but we see Jesus as this respectable guy; like someone you would want to pray to: but back in the day, Jesus would have been the David Koresh of his time- just some bearded hippy trying to start his own cult: only without the guns (coz they hadn't been invented yet.) So you can imagine all the young girls going crazy for Jesus- I mean, he was bigger than the Beatles... So in the 1st century little Naomi goes home and says to daddy "Daddy, I met this cool dude called Jesus and I'm gonna leave home and become a Christian", and the father says " I think we had better pray to Jehovah about this, you are being brainwashed into a cult": except they probably didn't do that; they might have sacrificed a sheep instead to atone for this wayward course of their daughter. So you see, Jesus was bad news for families. But you can imagine David Koresh, as he handed out guns to his followers, saying " Do not think I have come to bring peace to the world..." It's just what you would expect a cult leader to say.
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PSacramento
Re: the bible.
The bible is the wrod fo God in the wrods of Man and that can't be denied nor neglected.
The living WORD of God is Christ.
The bible is a guide to Christ and to God, yes, but itis NOT the path nor is it the destination nor does it have higher or even equal authority than Christ.
Long before there was a bible or ANY of the books of the bible, there was God and those the believed in Him and they were judged righteous based on that and not on following any book.
WHile the bible CAN be sued to teach ABOUT God and Christ one can NOT KNOW them JUST be the bible.
People say the the bible is "god breathed" and "inspired" by God and I ask, what is "God breathed" about Chronicles? or even Kings? and what of the books mentioned in Kings to which the reader is pointed to look into fo "further detail" ?
The books of the bible as what they are, lets not make them any MORE or any LESS than they are.
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DesirousOfChange
Re: What did Jesus mean at Matthew 10:34-36?
I'm curious WHY THIS SCRIPTURE is the one thing you bring up when you're trying to prepare for your family's visit?
Are they using this scripture against you? If so, then this must be the "standard reply" going around at this time. This is probably being highlighted over and over at the CA Elders' Meetings, at the Elders' School, etc.
After several recent DFings in our area, we had a "Local Needs Talk" about shunning family members who are DFd. Matt 10:34-36 was the ONLY scripture cited. Everything else quoted was from WTS material. Additionally, it was said there should be NO conversation between family members in the same household when one of them is DFd! I suspect Brother Good Ole Country Boy Elder (with no education) went beyond the words written (even the WTS words).....unless they really are taking this hardline of a stand "verbally". I can't see them ever putting that into print as it would open them to governmental charges in some parts of the world. Not the US, so they can preach this extreme "hate position" here without reprisal.
They are tightening the screws. They know that if "believers" talk with the outted family members they may learn TTATT.
DOC
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ProdigalSon
bioflex:Well if i didnt know better i would have been bothered by your post, Your post says it all about you. the DIVINE SPARK? SOFIA ? GOD WITHIN? you have much to learn about the Gospel.
Maybe so, but you seem to be where I was about five years ago. I'd rather keep the car moving forward than to start driving in reverse, thank you.
The belief that God exists outside of yourself with an unbridgable gulf in between is a Satanic one, the basis of the three Satanic Abrahamic religions, whose track records speak for themselves.
I would start here:
The Jesus Myth
http://armageddonconspiracy.co.uk/The-Jesus-Myth%281765162%29.htm
The Jesus Plot
http://armageddonconspiracy.co.uk/The-Jesus-Plot%281777928%29.htm