Leo pretty much summed it up on the botton, as she usually does.
Jesus Christ was INVENTED?
by sizemik 102 Replies latest watchtower bible
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designs
We have a hard time figuring facts from legends with characters such as Jesse James imagine the scale of difficulty with a God/Man character.
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ProdigalSon
"That which is known as the Christian religion existed among the ancients, and never did not exist; from the beginning of the human race until the time when Christ came in the flesh, at which time the true religion, which already existed began to be called Christianity." - Saint Augustine of Hippo, Retractions, Book One, Part 12, "One Book on the True Religion."
"The Christian church, the Christian form of worship, was not invented by the fathers of the church. It was all taken in a ready-made form from Egypt, only not from the Egypt that we know but from one which we do not know. This Egypt was in the same place as the other but it existed much earlier. Only small bits of it survived in historical times, and these bits have been preserved in secret and so well that we do not even know where they have been preserved.
"It will seem strange to many people when I say that this prehistoric Egypt was Christian many thousands of years before the birth of Christ, that is to say, that its religion was composed of the same principles and ideas that constitute true Christianity. Special schools existed in this prehistoric Egypt which were called 'schools of repetition.' In these schools a public repetition was given on definite days, and in some schools perhaps even every day, of the entire course in a condensed form of the sciences that could be learned at these schools. Sometimes this repetition lasted a week or a month. Thanks to these repetitions people who had passed through this course did not lose their connection with the school and retained in their memory all they had learned. Sometimes they came from very far away simply in order to listen to the repetition and went away feeling their connection with the school. There were special days of the year when the repetitions were particularly complete, when they were carried out with particular solemnity—and these days themselves possessed a symbolical meaning.
"These 'schools of repetition' were taken as a model for Christian churches—the form of worship in Christian churches almost entirely represents the course of repetition of the science dealing with the universe and man. Individual prayers, hymns, responses, all had their own meaning in this repetition as well as holidays and all religious symbols, though their meaning has been forgotten long ago."
-G.I. Gurdjieff, cited in the book In Search of the Miraculous (pages 302-303) by P. D. Ouspensky
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botchtowersociety
"That which is known as the Christian religion existed among the ancients, and never did not exist; from the beginning of the human race until the time when Christ came in the flesh, at which time the true religion, which already existed began to be called Christianity."
Here is the source for this quote, with context.
Here is Eusebius, writing in the early 4th century, and predating Augustine of Hippo, in his "History of the Church"
Book I, Chapter 4, Verse 4:
But although it is clear that we are new and that this new name of Christians has really but recently been known among all nations, nevertheless our life and our conduct, with our doctrines of religion, have not been lately invented by us, but from the first creation of man, so to speak, have been established by the natural understanding of divinely favored men of old. That this is so we shall show in the following way.
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Giordano
History is pretty sketchy when it comes to Jesus. Enough so that putting one's hopes and faith in the story is problematical if not down right dangerous.
All of the back room wheeling and dealing to blend a number of writings into a cohesive whole called the NT should be troublesome for believers. But then again being a believer simply means one has suspended logical thinking for fantasy in a vain atempt to set their mind at ease in a troubling world.
On a factual level Jesus has not been seen or heard from for 2,000 years and god does not interveen in human affairs. Like it or not they are no more powerful or caring or effective then any of the thousands of gods mankind has called on.
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sabastious
Sizemik, I think of it this way.
Think of a recent Jesus type figure, I'll use Martin Luther King Jr. Then somehow within your mind change the setting without changing the person. Place them in a fantasy setting where they still have the same revolutionary personality but no modern technology whatsoever or press organization to cover their story. In this new setting all that happens must be transmitted by word of mouth. Then allow 70 years to take place as people parse what had happened. How different from reality would the figure then be?
That being said what the people wrote down about the changed figure could theoretically be decoded so-to-speak. It's obvious that the words in the Gospels are some people's best guess and are a collection of what they probably refered to as reliable sources. Nonetheless, Christ was definitely real, but his story is a real brain teaser because of how it all went down the last 2,000 years.
-Sab
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Leolaia
Think of a recent Jesus type figure, I'll use Martin Luther King Jr. Then somehow within your mind change the setting without changing the person. Place them in a fantasy setting where they still have the same revolutionary personality but no modern technology whatsoever or press organization to cover their story. In this new setting all that happens must be transmitted by word of mouth. Then allow 70 years to take place as people parse what had happened. How different from reality would the figure then be?
Well, a good ancient example is Muhammad. Legendary oral traditions about his life proliferated after his death, preserved in the sira and hadith:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Muhammad
There are similar examples in rabbinical literature about the Tannaim; some of the stories (including miracle narratives rather similar to those in the gospels) date to just a generation or two after the death of the rabbi in question.
Papias in the early second century AD is a witness to the kinds of tales spread orally about Jesus and the apostles in his time.
A fascinating modern example of legendary narratives arising through oral tradition and adjustment of memory around a core historical event is the Roswell UFO crash legend (see B. Saler, C. A. Ziegler, and C. B. Moore's UFO Crash at Roswell: The Genesis of a Modern Myth, 1997).
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AGuest
"It will seem strange to many people when I say that this prehistoric Egypt was Christian many thousands of years before the birth of Christ, that is to say, that its religion was composed of the same principles and ideas that constitute true Christianity.
From what I understand from my Lord, dear PSon (peace to you!), this isn't strange at all. Abel was a 'christian' (chosen person). As was Seth, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob... Joseph. Moses. The last five lived in "Egypt" (Jacob, Joseph, and Moses, in Egypt proper(... as the lands of Canaan were part of the possessions of Egypt (which is why Jacob had to GO to Egypt for grain during the famine of his time!). Since Joseph, a "christian" (chosen person) was made second in command to Pharaoh... and Israel eventually began to occupy Egypt, it shouldn't be a surprise that some of the Hebrew beliefs/faith were inculcated.
"True" christianity is not the "religion" that exists today... or has for close to 2 millenia now. It has nothing to do with religion, at all... which was part of the problem with the temple/priest arrangement of the Jews; indeed, it is anti-religion... which is why Christ condemned the "works" of the leaders of the only institution OF it sanctioned by God.
I would ask those here, however, if you've ever considered that the secular history regarding Christ is sparse... because... there really WASN'T anyone named "Jesus" who existed, did the things, or had the role attributed to the one called such? That perhaps it is obscuring of the NAME that is the problem? Meaning, perhaps you won't find much/anything about a "Jesus" secularly, because there was no such person; rather, the person in question went by an entirely different name... which name was replaced by this "Jesus"... so that you cannot find much as to it, either? And why would that other name be replaced... by whom... and how?
If you can bring yourselves to consider the last set of questions (why, by whom, and how)... you might "see" the Bible, as it is currently canonized... as the "how" (as well as why it was written, canonized, interpreted, and USED... as it is!)... and the why and for what purpose (it WAS so written, canonized, etc.)... and by whom... in an entirely different "light."
Just something to think about, dear ones.
Peace to you, all!
A slave of Christ,
SA
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Bella15
After everything is said an done it is PROPHECY fullfillment that matters ... The Spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus !!! The Heavenly Father challenge His opposers/everyone with this ... He asks" Tell me what's going to happen in the future ... tell me the end from the beginning, tell me what is still to come ...
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AGuest
For those who wonder what I "might" be getting at (peace to you!), I offer:
1. Pyramids serve as tombs, as well as altars.
2. Supposedly, the Vatican is built on top of Peter's "grave." I don't know - no way for me to. If true, though, why build an edifice THERE... on top of an Apostle's grave/tomb... especially if he is your "patron"? Why not allow "the people" to see it/pay homage, if they wished? I don't doubt that it IS on such grave/tomb, because...
3. For centuries, the RCC ran around building edifices on TOP of mesoamerican pyramids (which were altars/tombs) and burial sites. Why?
4. The Aztecs claimed a visit by "Quetzalcoatl" (who is described as a "serpent with feathers")... whom they deified.
5. Spirit beings... are seraphs: flying, fiery, serpents.
6. Christ... is a spirit being (was one long before being "made flesh"). Thus, a "seraph". He even compared by himself to "the copper serpent."
7. The most common way for folks to know "of" this "Christ" person... is the Bible; however, other peoples have had oral traditions that spoke of things that greatly resembled the experiences/beliefs/teachings of certain Biblical personages.
8. The Bible was compiled and canonized under the auspices of great debate and various councils covering a span of more than 1,000 years. In the end, no one claimed "holy spirit" are the guiding source (unlike those at the first "Apostolic Council" at Jerusalem, over the matter of circumcision).
Just some more "stuff" to consider. Again, peace to you all!
A slave of Christ,
SA