Jesus Christ was INVENTED?

by sizemik 102 Replies latest watchtower bible

PSacramento

4. The Aztecs claimed a visit by "Quetzalcoatl" (who is described as a "serpent with feathers")... whom they deified.
And this"deity" drove them to do horrific things, blood sacrifices and worse even.
A "fallen angel" if ever there was one and, perhaps, even THE fallen one.
5. Spirit beings... are seraphs: flying, fiery, serpents.
Not all of them are good however.
6. Christ... is a spirit being (was one long before being "made flesh"). Thus, a "seraph". He even compared by himself to "the copper serpent."
"copper serpent"?
7. The most common way for folks to know "of" this "Christ" person... is the Bible; however, other peoples have had oral traditions that spoke of things that greatly resembled the experiences/beliefs/teachings of certain Biblical personages.
Long before there was a bibel there were those that God viewed as righteous, they didn't "need" a bible.
8. The Bible was compiled and canonized under the auspices of great debate and various councils covering a span of more than 1,000 years. In the end, no one claimed "holy spirit" are the guiding source (unlike those at the first "Apostolic Council" at Jerusalem, over the matter of circumcision).
Well...the canon was a collection of authortive books, those books didn't become authoritive because they became canon, they become canon because they were already viewed as authrotiive.
That said, who has the right to decide what WAS authoritive?
jonathan dough

"Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist--he denies the Father and the Son."
1 John 2:22
Proof texts that Jesus was, and is, God.
sabastious

Shelby: Spirit beings... are seraphs: flying, fiery, serpents.
PSac: Not all of them are good however.
PSac, what makes you think it was the spirit creatures that caused the blood sacrifices? It was the humans that chose to do it, and I don't believe there is enough evidence in my lifetime to say that evil spirits exist. Spirts exist, I am pretty sure of that, but there is no reason to believe that any of them are evil in the same sense that humans can be evil.
Energy only requires a source of power. Spirts, as beings of energy, do not require consumption of energy to sustain themselves, I don't think. All of what we call evil revolves around human selfishness which can be traced to our history of having to fight to survive. Chloroform matter requires other Chloroform to continue existing in that form.
Humans do the atrocities in the percieved name of survival. If there are energy beings then I would reckon they are vastly more evolved than us. Even in our realm of war and strife ethics and morals have transcended the pain in attempt to make a better life for all. Ethics might be stomped down by society like whacking moles, but they exist and that counts for an incredible amount.
Are there energy beings out there that hate us? Maybe, but they seem to have to conform to rulesets of some sort of higher power whether that be non-intelligent or something different. I like to lean towards having a magic stone like David, but I have always been a hopeless romantic.
-Sab
sacolton

If Leolaia says it's BS ... it's BS.
/end topic
AGuest

And this"deity" drove them to do horrific things, blood sacrifices and worse even.
Actually, it was this one who tried to get them to stop, dear PSacto (the greatest of love and peace to you!). It was his twin who got them to start in the first place (Exodus 25:17-22; Ezekiel 28:13-19; Revelation 12:7-9).
"copper serpent"?
Yep: "For just as Moses lifted up the copper serpent... so the Son of Man must be lifted up." Numbers 21:9; John 3:14 Think, dear one: what was our Lord's "appearance" when he was seen by Daniel and John? Daniel 10:6; Revelation 1:15 There is a [very wonderful!] reason that our Lord made this comparison...
Long before there was a bibel there were those that God viewed as righteous, they didn't "need" a bible.
Yes. I should have stated, the most common way TODAY. My apologies for that oversight...
the canon was a collection of authortive books, those books didn't become authoritive because they became canon, they become canon because they were already viewed as authrotiive.
Yes. Again, perhaps unclear by me... but as you point out, who SAID they were "authoritative"? The Apostles only recognized holy spirit (Jeremiah 31:33, 34; John 14:26;Acts 15:28; Hebrews 8:11; 1 John 2:20, 26-28)
what makes you think it was the spirit creatures that caused the blood sacrifices? It was the humans that chose to do it
Exactly, dear Sab (the greatest of love and peace to you, as well!): they can entice it, but not cause it. Just like the Adversary could only entice Eve, but not MAKE her eat. That had to be HER decision.
and I don't believe there is enough evidence in my lifetime to say that evil spirits exist. Spirts exist, I am pretty sure of that, but there is no reason to believe that any of them are evil in the same sense that humans can be evil.
No, wait... they can be, although not "in the same sense" as humans can be. They, in their outright rebellion against the Most Holy One of Israel; we, in how we treat one another... and other forms of life. For US... it is desires that are WITHIN us... that these can... and sometimes DO... entice out. Again, as with Eve. The desire IN us can then give birth to sin.
Energy only requires a source of power. Spirts, as beings of energy, do not require consumption of energy to sustain themselves, I don't think.
Au contrare, dear one. Indeed, in order to remain strong they, too, must eat... from the Tree of Life: Chirst, the Light, who is the Source/Conduit of that energy (Psalm 78:25; John 1:9; 8:12; 15:1; John 6:35, 41, 48, 58) If they are cut off from "eating" from that "Tree" (as Adham, who was made in God's "image", was)... they weaken. This is HOW they can be destroyed. (Matthew 10:28) If they eat from him, however, eat the "manna"... they can live indefinitely. (Genesis 3:22)
Which is why the Adversary had to be hurled OUT of the spirit realm (which he battled with his twin, Michael, to keep from occurring). So that he could not "eat." It is for this reason that he goes out to mislead Gog and Magog to come against the Holy City (New Jerusalem): if he can gain access... and "eat", again... he will live indefinitely. The Most Holy One of Israel will NOT let this happen, however. Rather, he is thrown in to the Lake of Fire... where he burns for a VERY long time ("forever and ever")... because it takes a long time to consume that kind and amount of energy) (Revelation 20:7-10)
All of what we call evil revolves around human selfishness which can be traced to our history of having to fight to survive. Chloroform matter requires other Chloroform to continue existing in that form.
Not sure I can entirely agree with this. It absolutely DOES revolve around us... and it is we who let others "exploit" our selfish desires. Survival may play a part, but supposedly that is what separates us from the beasts. Indeed, some beasts will even give THEIR lives so that other beasts may live. Some (family dogs, for example) will give their so that HUMANS can live. Given that even beasts can display selflessness... I don't know if "having" to fight to survive in the foundation. Survival wasn't an issue for Cain; it was jealousy. Which is rotteness "to the bones." Since the spirit... or life (blood)... is IN the bones... then it is rotteness... in spirit. In one's very LIFE.
Humans do the atrocities in the percieved name of survival.
No, see, I can't agree with that. Survival is one of the last reasons humans commit the atrocities they do. Self-preservation may play a part in some instances; however, self-servingness... which is NOT the same thing... comes into play much more often.
If there are energy beings then I would reckon they are vastly more evolved than us.
They are. They are what we are supposed to be attaining TO. What's holding us back, however, is that "long garment of skin" - the flesh. Why? Because IT has wants/needs/desires... that are anathema. Coupled with a... ummmmm... tainted spirit (due to IT'S desires, which are separate/different from those of the flesh)... and, well, it takes even longer. If it can occur, at all.
Even in our realm of war and strife ethics and morals have transcended the pain in attempt to make a better life for all.
There is the appearance of that, yes. It is only an appearance, however. The human 'condition' is VERY cyclical, dear one. We have eras of "enlightenment" and civility... followed by eras of darkness and barbarism. Then light... then darkness... light... dark... and so on...
Ethics might be stomped down by society like whacking moles, but they exist and that counts for an incredible amount.
So, funny, we "westerners." Why do we always assume that "our" society" encompasses everyone and all societies? Been to African recently, have you? Bangladesh? Sri Lanka? Pakistan? China? Indonesia? Far reaches of the Siberian wilderness?
Are there energy beings out there that hate us? Maybe
Yes.
but they seem to have to conform to rulesets of some sort of higher power whether that be non-intelligent or something different.
They do, but only to a certain degree. Sometimes, what WE do "allows" them to "break" some of those rules. WE provide the "doors" FOR them. Not to the sensational "poltergeist-y" or other ludicrous phenomenal melarkey, of course... but much realer stuff: LIKE murder, genocide, infanticide, etc.
I like to lean towards having a magic stone like David, but I have always been a hopeless romantic.
Not sure what you're referring to here (smile), but I like how you're trying to see the "good" in it all. While that's commendable... it can be dangerous. Not in a "beward of Smurf's/what you see in horror movies kind of way"... but in that you might not know/see when YOU are being "used" to play out another spirit's "evil". For example, when a husband/wife severely persecutes his/her spouse, perhaps even physically... because they don't "like" what the other one believes/doesn't believe. Such one is ALLOWING themselves to be used to "divide" something that, in God's eyes... is "one."
Again, peace to you, both!
YOUR servant and fellow slave of Christ,
SA
designs

jd- prove it, ask your god to do something spectacular in the next 8 hours, go on now's your big chance.
sabastious

Thank you for the reply, Shelby.
I don't think you realize what we are completely, no offense. You use the symbolism of Christianity to explain existence extremely well, however I believe it falls short because of when that particular framework was created. The fundamentals of Christianity can be found all throughout the earth and history. The TRUTH is that there is no inherent separation between animal and human. Think if an alien species came to earth invisibly to observe. They would call us the dominant species of the planet, nothing more. We got some cool things, but not enough of us choose to act better than the some of our parts.
However, there are lots of people on this planet, you and I included, that have chosen not to be animals. It takes human choice and that is what I believe Jesus was speaking about when he said that we cannot see the kingdom of God without being born of water and spirit. Water is not only what we use to quench life-threatening thirst, but we use it to cleanse our fleshly bodies as well. No human can escape being in contact with water. A mixture between water and spirit energy, according to the Gospels, is a required step for the human mind to transcend itself. Baptism requires a choice and that's where the interface between the spirit world and the earthly world lies. For a baptism to be real one has to believe that the experience is more than just a dunk in H20 like all the times before. We already know that electricity and water creates current.
Christians, for some reason, seem to want to hide the fact that Holy Spirit acts like magic and is probably a different way of describing the same process that empowers Ch'i.
The Jesus character is always portrayed as having a large time gap. Boys became men pretty quickly back then for work load purposes.
Buddha was reported as "having no enemines" because he had simply chosen them not to be regardless of what they had done. Jesus was reported as teaching to "love your enemies" which would be an explanation of why someone has no enemies. Unlike Solomon, who plagiarized the eastern methods, Jesus seemed to improve fundamental eastern concepts.
If beings of energy DID come to earth to save what they thought were their children (Abraham), it would make since that they had their rep (Jesus) live with the Asians for a bit. He might have ran away there to get away from Jewish and Roman rule. Hell, he might even had a wife there and didn't want to leave.
-Sab
shepherd

"I don't think any of those that they claim to having been born of a virgin, actually were born of a virgin, other than Christ."
I love the way Tec dismisses the claims of others but automatically accepts the same ridiculous claim that Christ was born of a virgin.
I don't think Jesus was invented in that he probably did exist, but I do think certain aspects were added afterwards and attributed to him. The virgin birth being one of them. What exists today is an exaggerated version, a embelleshed biography. Of course he never really walked on water, he was a man like any other. Do I expect Tec and others to agree? Nope, they would deny the existence of their own noses if it contradicted their religious fantasy.
jonathan dough

jd- prove it, ask your god to do something spectacular in the next 8 hours, go on now's your big chance.
I'll give you the same answer Christ gave Satan.
"Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"
Matt. 4:7
AGuest

Thank you for the reply, Shelby.
You are quite welcome, dear Sab (again, peace to you!)
I don't think you realize what we are completely, no offense.
Completely... ? And I take no offense (I surely know you MEAN none, so...)...
You use the symbolism of Christianity to explain existence extremely well, however I believe it falls short because of when that particular framework was created.
I think I understand what you mean... but not sure I agree. My understanding is that, in truth, it always "was." Just didn't have a name, per se, because none was actually called "christ"... derived from a Greek word ("kristos"). But I might be misunderstanding you...
The fundamentals of Christianity can be found all throughout the earth and history.
YES! That's my understanding, as well...
The TRUTH is that there is no inherent separation between animal and human.
I absolutely agree with this, dear one, and have posted such. No separation; however, there is a DIFFERENCE: the vessel. Ours allows us to do much more. Like speak.
Think if an alien species came to earth invisibly to observe. They would call us the dominant species of the planet, nothing more. We got some cool things, but not enough of us choose to act better than the some of our parts.
I agree. Did I give you the impression I didn't? If so, let me be clear: I agree.
However, there are lots of people on this planet, you and I included, that have chosen not to be animals.
Oh. Not sure I agree that it was a choice, dear one, but... okay...
It takes human choice and that is what I believe Jesus was speaking about when he said that we cannot see the kingdom of God without being born of water and spirit.
THAT, again, I agree with. I AGREE that we can choose NOT to see the kingdom, yes. As for the vessel, however, my understanding is that a spirit is placed in whatever vessels God gives it... according to it's "kind."
Water is not only what we use to quench life-threatening thirst, but we use it to cleanse our fleshly bodies as well.
Yes...
No human can escape being in contact with water.
K...
A mixture between water and spirit energy, according to the Gospels, is a required step for the human mind to transcend itself. Baptism requires a choice and that's where the interface between the spirit world and the earthly world lies. For a baptism to be real one has to believe that the experience is more than just a dunk in H20 like all the times before. We already know that electricity and water creates current.
Now, I realize that water is VERY important... and I don't disagree with what you stated here... except as to baptism. Water cleanses, yes, but FIRE purifies. Much more than water. And so it is baptism by FIRE... not water... that is the thing. Unless one was under the Old Law. In which case, one must undergo both: baptism by water, in symbol of their "death" as to their sins... THEIR "dying" and being "raised up", per se... as well as baptism by the "water of life"... holy spirit... which "fire" literally purifies that which even H2O cannot.
Christians, for some reason, seem to want to hide the fact that Holy Spirit acts like magic and is probably a different way of describing the same process that empowers Ch'i.
Now, see... it doesn't act like "magic" to me; "magic" is either illusory... or has no explanation. Holy spirit has an explanation just by means of what it IS. As for some not wanting to equate it with Ch'i... that's probably because either don't know about or understand Ch'i... or agree that it is the same thing.
The Jesus character is always portrayed as having a large time gap. Boys became men pretty quickly back then for work load purposes.
Again, okayyyy...
Buddha was reported as "having no enemines" because he had simply chosen them not to be regardless of what they had done. Jesus was reported as teaching to "love your enemies" which would be an explanation of why someone has no enemies.
Yet, Christ (whom some call "Jesus")... had enemies. In this realm AND the spirit realm. Still does. Particularly the "last" enemy: Death.
Unlike Solomon, who plagiarized the eastern methods, Jesus seemed to improve fundamental eastern concepts.
Because they existed in the East, as well, dear one. Abraham CAME from the East. JOB was from the East. Abraham's sons by Keturah RETURNED to the East. The "philosophies" of the East are interwined. Indeed, the Chinese "cherubs" posted at the entrance to "paradise"... are dragons. The Chinese (and other eastern cultures) REVERE dragons. Why? Because seraphs... including the Most Holy One Himself... are dragons, dear one: flying, fiery, serpents. NOT snakes. Those are "beasts". A serpent is actually not a snake. It is portrayed as one, in many of man's languages, because man does not understand. They read "go along on your belly and eat dust"... and conclude that it is referring to a snake. Because they've never SEEN a seraph. So, it MUST be something of THIS world. It is not.
If beings of energy DID come to earth to save what they thought were their children (Abraham), it would make since that they had their rep (Jesus) live with the Asians for a bit. He might have ran away there to get away from Jewish and Roman rule. Hell, he might even had a wife there and didn't want to leave.
I have not heard, but my spirit does not reject this. Again, Abraham was from the East... had children return there... and so it's not too far fetched to ME that some time might be there. Given that the "Magi" were Abraham's descendants... came and did obeisance to the One they considered to be THEIR "Lord," and then returned... I would not doubt it. He didn't have a wife, there, though: my Lord was "promised" to a wife long before he was born in the flesh: his Bride, NEW Jerusalem. It was her that he gave his life for. She includes Israel... and all those [of the world] who go with her. NOT Israel as we know that nation in the flesh, though... but Israel, who shows themselves to be the TRUE children of Abraham... THROUGH Isaac... in spirit.
Thank you for the interchange and information, dear Sab. Again, I can't agree with all that you've shared but, as my Lord said: "He that is not against you... is for you."
Peace to you, dear one!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
-Sab

Jesus Christ was INVENTED?

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