Jesus Christ was INVENTED?

by sizemik 102 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    PSac, again- I won't rejoin this type of debate for the back-and-forth arguments.
    Have it your way if you are so sure. See, that's part of what causes so much trouble. People argue over such details and then it is forgotten that the writings still were anonymous and after-the-fact and the originals are gone.
    Copied or wrote based on.... Have it your way again. Changes nothing.

    I just pointed out that you maybe in error in regards to the dating that it seems you are passing of as fact, that's all.

    Please make that statement clearer. I don't know what you mean. I won't bother responding, but you should be clear. What is "the even of the NT" ? If you are just trying to say what the focal point of the writings was, I never commented on the focal point and I won't dispute what various people believe is the reason for writing. We are all free to believe what we want.

    I mean that regardless of the view that scholars have about the identity of christ, the resurrection is stil THE event in the NT that makes Christ as bring simply "another teacher/reformer" quite improbable.

    One can't speak of Christ without speaking of the resurrection ( regardless of ones belief in the resurrection).

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    Peace to you all.

    Progress. I LOVE it! Peace to you, too, Jer...

    SA, on her own...

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    And I really gotta stop doing this, but I hate just letting it go without one single rebuttal beyond "changes nothing."

    The oldest surviving manuscript that PSac references. Most of the debate on the age of the fragment is based on the style of writing and not any tests of the material. But a copyist of an original would copy the style of the original. Some experts feel it is that old. Fine. It's that old, the Gospel of John was written before 140 AD, maybe even 130 AD if some experts' opinions are right.
    IMPORTANT TO NOTE: It's a fragment that measures 3.5 inches by 2.5 inches. It contains parts of 7 lines on the front, and parts of 7 lines on the back.

    When we start going down the road of such arguments, we bury the idea that the Gospel of John disagrees with the Synoptic Gospels and other points that were already made about it, such as it's being written in Greek long after the events written about occurred with people who spoke Aramaic.

    Thanks for allowing that "correction" to be made.

    Edited to add:
    Here it is-

    Not to scale

  • tec
    tec

    Gospel of John disagrees with the Synoptic Gospels

    What about Christ does it disagree with? I agree that there is more depth to its understanding of Christ, but I don't see as it disagrees with anything. Just curious what you mean.

    Peace,

    Tammy

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    Peace to you, Tammy. Sorry, I won't go there. Enjoy debate/learning from others on your personal spiritual journey. Start with googling: "synoptic gospels vs. john"

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    And the fragment can be read about at wikipedia. I know that's not the end-all of debate sources, but facts are facts.

    From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rylands_Library_Papyrus_P52

    The papyrus is written on both sides, and the surviving portion also includes part of the top and inner margins of the page. The characters in bold style are the ones that can be seen in Papyrus \mathfrak{P} 52 .

    Gospel of John 18:31-33 (recto)

    ΟΙ ΙΟΥΔΑΙΟΙ ΗΜΙΝ ΟΥΚ ΕΞΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΠΟΚΤΕΙΝΑΙ
    OYΔΕΝΑ ΙΝΑ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ ΤΟΥ ΙΗΣΟΥ ΠΛΗΡΩΘΗ ΟΝ ΕΙ-
    ΠΕΝ ΣHΜΑΙΝΩΝ ΠΟΙΩ ΘΑΝΑΤΩ ΗΜΕΛΛΕΝ ΑΠΟ-
    ΘΝHΣΚΕΙΝ ΕΙΣΗΛΘΕΝ ΟΥΝ ΠΑΛΙΝ ΕΙΣ ΤΟ ΠΡΑΙΤΩ-
    ΡΙΟΝ Ο ΠIΛΑΤΟΣ ΚΑΙ ΕΦΩΝΗΣΕΝ ΤΟΝ ΙΗΣΟΥΝ
    ΚΑΙ ΕΙΠΕΝ ΑΥΤΩ ΣΥ ΕΙ O ΒΑΣΙΛΕΥΣ ΤΩΝ ΙΟΥ-
    ΔAΙΩN
    ...

    the Jews, "For us it is not permitted to kill
    anyone," so that the word of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he sp-
    oke signifying what kind of death he was going to
    die. Entered therefore again into the Praeto-
    rium Pilate and summoned Jesus
    and said to him, "Thou art king of the

    Jews?"

    Gospel of John 18:37-38 (verso)

    ΒΑΣΙΛΕΥΣ ΕΙΜΙ ΕΓΩ ΕΙΣ TOΥΤΟ ΓΕΓΕΝΝΗΜΑΙ
    ΚΑΙ (ΕΙΣ ΤΟΥΤΟ) ΕΛΗΛΥΘΑ ΕΙΣ ΤΟΝ ΚΟΣΜΟΝ ΙΝΑ ΜΑΡΤY-ΡΗΣΩ ΤΗ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ ΠΑΣ Ο ΩΝ EΚ ΤΗΣ ΑΛΗΘΕI-
    ΑΣ ΑΚΟΥΕΙ ΜΟΥ ΤΗΣ ΦΩΝΗΣ ΛΕΓΕΙ ΑΥΤΩ
    Ο ΠΙΛΑΤΟΣ ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ ΚAΙ ΤΟΥΤO
    ΕΙΠΩΝ ΠΑΛΙΝ ΕΞΗΛΘΕΝ ΠΡΟΣ ΤΟΥΣ ΙΟΥ-
    ΔΑΙΟΥΣ ΚΑΙ ΛΕΓΕΙ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ ΕΓΩ ΟΥΔEΜΙΑΝ
    ΕΥΡΙΣΚΩ ΕΝ ΑΥΤΩ ΑΙΤΙΑΝ
    ...

    a King I am. For this I have been born
    and (for this) I have come into the world so that I would
    testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth
    hears of me my voice." Said to him
    Pilate, "What is truth?" and this
    having said, again he went out unto the Jews
    and said to them, "I find not one

    fault in him."
    Edited to add:
    There is not the smallest fragment of trustworthy evidence to show that any of the four Gospels were in existence earlier than a hundred years after the time at which Christ is supposed to have died.
    I said that above. I have to admit I was wrong, instead of just implying it. Change it to "...after the time at which Christ is supposed to have been born" and it still fits. There is the smallest fragment.
  • tec
    tec

    Peace also to you, OTWO. I wasn't intending on debate... just discussion, since I didn't know what you meant. Please don't feel that I am engaging you in anything, though. Just commenting on my thoughts as is anyone else. I did google what you suggested. What I read shows that there are differences (I never argued that, and as I've read the accounts, I know there are differences) in the stories. But don't there have to be differences (differences do not have to mean conflicts) if you have more than one person telling things as they remembered and e x perienced them?

    The only contention seems to be what those 'differences' mean - and as far as I can tell, that is subjective.

    Again, peace to you.

    Tammy

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    Gospel of John disagrees with the Synoptic Gospels
    What about Christ does it disagree with?

    And Tammy, I never suggested that the Gospel of John disagreed with anything "about Christ." On the contrary, I said "...it gives us an idealized and spiritualized picture of what Christ is supposed to have been, and that it is largely composed of the speculations of Greek philosophy."

    If you want to believe it is not only idealized but literal also, enjoy. I already know that you will allow for errors in the Gospels so we have no argument there. I have been commenting on whether the Jesus Christ written of in the Bible was invented. I stated the questions my way at the beginning of that post so there was no misunderstanding.

    If someone wants to believe in the Jesus Christ that Paul alledgedly believed in, not the Jesus Christ of the scriptures, I never addressed that directly.
    Happy birthday Jesus.

    Edited to add: should read "Jesus Christ of the Gospels" above. Not "scriptures."

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    OTWO, you do need to realize that dating historical docuemnts goes FAR beyond simply carbon dating.

    The consenus of scholars is that it is eary 2nd century, but even if we go with thet date you choose ( for obivous reasons), it is still a COPY of an original that was done earlier.

    Most put the GOJ at after the fall of Jerusalem of 70 AD, some put it at around 90 AD, which is about 60 years AFTER the death of Christ.

    Very good for any historical document from that time.

    WHich would put the synoptiocs even earlier and the writings of Paul even earlier.

    In terms of historicity the NT documents are very well regarded by vast majority of scholars.

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    But a copyist of an original would copy the style of the original.

    Not necessarily, Jer. Even today copyists take great liberties. Even so with a copy of a copy... of an original. For example, you state:

    we bury the idea that the Gospel of John disagrees with the Synoptic Gospels and other points that were already made about it, such as it's being written in Greek long after the events written about occurred with people who spoke Aramaic.

    There is the [very] erroneous school of thought that the account attributed to John (which was actually written by Lazarus, or "Simon") was originally written in Greek. Indeed, there is this thinking as to all of the accounts, with debate largely being limited to the account attributed to Matthew. Yet, as you state, these people (excluding Luke, and possibly "Mark") SPOKE Aramaic. What logic is there in assuming that people whose first language was Aramaic would write, originally, in GREEK? As certain accounts insinuate, they were largely loyal to the Hebrew Jews FIRST, then the Greeks (they often didn't even consider the latter as "true" Jews). There is even a writing entitled "TO the "Hebrews"... yet, it's in Greek. Shouldn't THAT make someone go, "Hmmmmmm..."?

    Why Greek? Some surmise that it was the next primary language of the times among the Jews, their other language. Okay. But to assume the writings were ONLY in Greek... when there was certainly a very large HEBREW (and thus Aramaic-speaking) Jewish population in Jerusalem, larger, in fact, than the Greek-speaking population (because most of the latter were merely travellers, in the City solely during certain major festivals)... makes no sense. Paul was a Roman... and so, he probably spoke Greek as well as the "Latin" tongue of the Romans. Given the demographics of HIS ministry (Corinth, Galatia, Thessolonica, Timothy, etc.), it makes sense that HIS writings would originally be in Greek.

    Whether in Aramaic or Greek, however... copyists often take some, if not great, "license" when copying/translating. My husband is a master calligrapher... which some refer to as a "scribe" or "copyist." Through him, I am personally acquainted with several much-revered modern-day copyists, including Thomas Ingmeyer... who was engaged as one of the master calligraphers on the recent "St. John's Bible" project:

    http://www.saintjohnsbible.org/see/

    http://www.saintjohnsbible.org/see/explore.htm

    http://www.saintjohnsbible.org/process/people_thomas_ingmire.html

    http://www.scriptsf.com/

    Due to attending a few exhibits and seminars regarding compilation of the St. John's Bible, I came to learn of how Bible (versions) are often actually commissioned:

    http://www.saintjohnsbible.org/process/dream.htm

    ... viewed:

    http://www.saintjohnsbible.org/process/principles_vision.htm

    ... completed:

    http://www.saintjohnsbible.org/process/production.htm

    ... and... sanctioned:

    http://www.saintjohnsbible.org/process/principles_bible.htm

    http://www.saintjohnsbible.org/heritage/

    I realize that this is only one Bible (version)... but in attending the seminars, I also learned that because they are ALSO considered "works of art"... great license is given. I say this because, as I was reading some of the actual texts that would go IN the final version, presented in slide presentations as well as printed "proofs", I noticed how some verses didn't say exactly what the "original" it was COPIED from (the NRSV... which was the NEW version revised from the RSV) said. This, then, is yet another "revision", actually. And I promise you... if some were to read it, say, in a format more available to the common people... they would think that this WAS an exact copy. How would they know otherwise (meaning, few would bother to compare).

    I share this, though, because... again... through that literal process I came to know, as was told to me by my Lord... who allowed me to SEE, for myself... that that whole "copied with care and precision" is... as some like to say, "BS." There are a multitude of reasons for why that is, including prophesy, similarities in certain Hebrew symbols... and a copyists own talents, as well as his/her limitations (in perception and comprehension).

    BUT... you've stated that you don't really want to discuss the matter... so...

    Just thought I'd share that, though. All fragments and writings... and their original languages... aside, one CAN know the truth about ALL of these things... if one just condescends to go to the One they want to know ABOUT... by going to... and/or through... His Son.

    For whatever it's worth...

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

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