Jesus Christ was INVENTED?

by sizemik 102 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    Even further explaining myself here is aggravating. So truly, I am done. I will comment one last time to a couple of you, but I am not out to "WIN" any arguments/points. I said what I said and granted that I made a mistake or two, but now have to address what is really opinions of "my scholars versus your scholars." ABSOLUTELY THE LAST THINGS I WILL SAY ON THIS THREAD:

    PSac, here we go down that road of debating WHEN EXACTLY the things were written. That is important and hugely debated/contested. So I won't profess to be an expert or that the experts I read were better than the experts you read. I conceded a point, even if I don't believe it is settled. The books were still written after the alledged life of the person in question. If we get it down to shortly after 70 AD, that's shy of 40 years after Jesus life. I already caved in that far, so we have no debate.

    So that is important to the matter, but WE won't settle it here.

    AGuest, I have to say about the copy: "apples and oranges." I was mentioning a copy presenting the exact same style as that thing it copied from in order to date the copy and set a time limit for the original. I was granting that the fragment, debateably, might move up the writing of the original. In that instance, I wasn't trying to insinuate (or mention at all) that the copy might have strayed from the original.

    The idea of Greek originals written about people who were speaking Aramaic is a different matter. That's where the idea of straying comes in. I am not "assuming that people whose first language was Aramaic would write, originally, in GREEK." I am going along with the vast vast majority of people who looked into this by saying that those who wrote the Greek texts were writing about OTHER people who were speaking Aramaic. They had to be relying on Holy Spirit or stories to do that. If I wrote about something AGuest said, and I wrote in Chinese, I would have to do so by translating what you said in English.

    If people want to say that Holy Spirit provided the translation, then there are issues of how the various texts don't agree on details.
    If people want to say that the writers didn't make up the conversations, but translated from eye-witness written accounts in Aramaic, well.... that adds another layer of originals that we cannot find today. If people want to say anything about the original documents, how can we debate over things that we have never seen? Since I am not debating, I did not read all your links. Its apples and oranges again. I was referring to the Greek copies available later to "US" of events that occurred with Aramaic-speaking people. There may well have been additional layers in-between, but it may just be that Paul wrote in Greek, so people adding to his writings wrote in Greek when they made these things up. It may also be that "selling" one's writings necessitated writing in Greek. There may be an answer to that, but I won't be pursueing it.

    If something else I said is debated, and you feel you won because of my silence, congratulations.

  • tec
    tec

    Out of curiosity, does anyone know HOW we would know if something was an original, or a copy?

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    PSac, here we go down that road of debating WHEN EXACTLY the things were written. That is important and hugely debated/contested. So I won't profess to be an expert or that the experts I read were better than the experts you read. I conceded a point, even if I don't believe it is settled. The books were still written after the alledged life of the person in question. If we get it down to shortly after 70 AD, that's shy of 40 years after Jesus life. I already caved in that far, so we have no debate.

    Ah dude, as you know I do NOT hold the bible to be "inerrant" like fundamentalists do.

    It really makes no difference to me if a person accepts the bible writitings or not or if they do, why they do.

    I believe that God transcends ANY book or collection of Books.

    I was being argumentive for arguments sake and just stating a different view.

    We have NO idea what the originals said or were, though we do have the views of the earliest patrictic writers, for whatever that may be worth.

    We have no idea WHO copied the originals and what changes they could have made, we would be speculating as much as those that say no changes were made.

    We simply do NOT know.

  • sabastious
    sabastious

    I swear, OTWO, when I read your words in this thread I hear the voice of Bart Ehrman. You both have an abrasive and stubborn attachment to simplicity. Whenever I watch Bart speak he seems to have to keep biting his tongue at the end of a long tirade to keep from saying, "...you MORONS!"

    -Sab

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    Out of curiosity, does anyone know HOW we would know if something was an original, or a copy?

    All we have are copies based on carbon dating of the copies ( none are dated to the time of Jesus and all are 2nd century and older).

    Carbon dating gives us a good idea about the date of those copies but there are other ways of dating the material that allows for dating of what was written in the copies ( date of the manuscript that the copy is of).

    Historically speaking, any document about a person that was dated to within a coupelof generations is viewed as very good and reliable.

  • botchtowersociety
    botchtowersociety

    I guess my English copy of Julius Caesar's Commentary on the Gallic Wars is worthless. There are only a handful of old manuscripts in existence, the oldest of which is more than 1000 years after the events it describes. And then there is the sudden disappearance of the ninth Spanish legion. Maybe Caesar never formed it to begin with. Maybe it never really existed.

    Made for an awesome movie though.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Eagle_(2011_film)

    And let's not even start on Livy's record of the Punic War.

  • tec
    tec

    No, what I'm asking is how do we know that the oldest manuscript that we have is NOT the original, instead of a copy? I'm not saying it is. I'm asking how we know? Is it by the content of the gospels?

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    No, what I'm asking is how do we know that the oldest manuscript that we have is NOT the original, instead of a copy? I'm not saying it is. I'm asking how we know? Is it by the content of the gospels?

    Ah, you are asking if, the parchament of the GOJ for example, is THE original and not a copy, yes?

  • 3dogs1husband
    3dogs1husband

    marked

  • tec
    tec

    Yes, Psac, thank you :)

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