they are still in heaven though. The "on earth" teaching doesn't hold weight
The Control is simply amazing
by outsmartthesystem 63 Replies latest jw experiences
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John_Mann
Revelation 19:1, 2 since it uses "voice of" they can argue that is not the same great crowd.
I have used that text often and really is very effective! Truly they always argue in this way, but then just toss the ball and ask to show where in the bible are written the great crowd are in earth. They will get more nervous after that...
And you can add that you have showed in the bible a direct quote that says the great crowd are in heaven but they cannot do the same about the great crowd being in the earth.
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wannabefree
just toss the ball and ask to show where in the bible are written the great crowd are in earth.
My reasoning on this subject having learned the JW way ....
(Revelation 7:9-10) 9 After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: "Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb."
(Revelation 7:14-15) . . .: "These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them.
(Revelation 21:3-4) 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: "Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away."
(Acts 7:49) 49 ‘The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool.. . .
(Matthew 5:34-35) 34 However, I say to YOU: Do not swear at all, neither by heaven, because it is God's throne; 35 nor by earth, because it is the footstool of his feet;. . .
(Psalm 37:29) 29 The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it.
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A footstool is before the throne, God's footstool is the earth, therefore, the great crowd before the throne are on the earth (the footstool).
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jonathan dough
The Great Crowd of Revelation 7:9 standing before God’s throne in heaven and before the Lamb is not standing on earth merely in an ‘approved condition’ but is in heaven contrary to the Jehovah's Witnesses' teachings. [Home]
First, Revelation 7:9 provides: “After these things I saw, and, look, a great crowd which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb ….” As with the Great Crowd, Revelation 14:1 also has the 144,000 standing in heaven with the Lamb, Jesus Christ. “And I saw, and, look! The Lamb standing upon Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand.”
The Greek verb histemi - to stand or standing - is used for both groups of individuals, but whereas the 144,000 are regarded as physically (as spiritual creatures) standing in the direct presence of the Lamb in heaven, the Jehovah’s Witnesses believe the Great Crowd on the other hand are actually on earth and stand only metaphorically before God; they are standing in an approved condition, or position, in the sight of God only. The Jehovah's Witnesses are aware of their conundrum.
This poses the question: if the “great crowd” are persons who gain salvation and remain on earth, how could they be said to be ‘standing before God’s throne and before the Lamb’? (Re 7:9) The position of ‘standing’ is sometimes used in the Bible to indicate the holding of a favored or approved position in the eyes of one in whose presence the individual or group stands. (Ps 1:5; 5:5; Pr 22:29, AT; Lu 1:19). In fact, in the previous chapter of Revelation, “the kings of the earth and the top-ranking ones and the military commanders and the rich and the strong ones and every slave and every free person” are depicted as seeking to hide themselves “from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” Re 6:15-17; compare Lu 21:36). It thus appears that the “great crowd” is formed of those persons who have been preserved during that time of wrath and who have been able to “stand” as approved by God and the Lamb. (Insight, 997).
However, it is noteworthy that the definition of histemi (standing or to stand) does not contain the notion of a ‘favored or approved position’ or condition according to the entry for histemi or a derivative paristemi, in Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (Vine’s Greek Dictionary). And as to its application at Revelation 6:15-17, which they cite, those depicted as hiding themselves are about to be destroyed, so they can hardly be said to be standing or seeking to stand in an "approved condition" before God. Other translations render the word “withstand.” (NAB).
Secondly, the Great Crowd cannot be standing in an approved condition on earth because Revelation 9:1-6 details the account of the Fifth Trumpet where locusts, given the power of scorpions, are instructed to torment and harm all those on earth who do not have the “seal of God on their foreheads.”
1 And the fifth angel blew his trumpet. And I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to the earth, and the key of the pit of the abyss was given him. 2 And he opened the pit of the abyss, and smoke ascended out of the pit as the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun was darkened, also the air, by the smoke of the pit. 3 And out of the smoke locusts came forth upon the earth; and authority was given them, the same authority as the scorpions of the earth have. 4 And they were told to harm no vegetation of the earth nor any green thing nor any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 And it was granted the [locusts], not to kill them, but that these should be tormented five months, and the torment upon them was as torment by a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6 And in those days the men will seek death but will by no means find it, and they will desire to die but death keeps fleeing from them. (Rev. 9:1-6 NWT).
According to the Jehovah’s Witnesses only the 144,000 have the seal of God on their foreheads, not the Great Crowd or anyone else.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrising, having a seal of [the] living God; and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:…. (Rev. 7:2-4 NWT)
Because the torment on the Great Crowd and others is to be so great that they will seek death it is difficult to imagine that the Great Crowd is standing on earth in an approved condition before God.
Third, one of the twenty-four elders in heaven upon seeing the Great Crowd comments “where did they come from?” (Rev. 7:13), which suggests they arrived from someplace else, namely earth.
Fourth, the Jehovah’s Witnesses deny the Great Crowd’s presence in heaven because “Revelation does not say of them, as it does of the 144,000 that they are bought from the earth” to be with Christ on heavenly Mount Zion. Rev 14:1-3.” (Reasoning, 167) But the Jehovah’s Witnesses are reading Scripture too narrowly and assume that the Great Crowd and 144,000 are separate. If, as mentioned above, a strong argument can be made that the 144,000 and the Great Crowd are the same - a qualitative identification of that large multitude - then the Great Crowd has indeed been bought from the earth because they are the 144,000 and represent all Christian people, which is the view taken by the Roman Catholic Church (Revelation 14:4, notes NAB).
Furthermore, it is not the 144,000 alone who were ransomed or bought by Jesus’ blood. The Jehovah’s Witnesses distinguish the Great Crowd from the 144,000 by the fact that the Great Crowd were of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues. But according to Revelation 5:9 this includes the 144,000 who also are of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues. (Reasoning, 168).
9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.” (Rev. 5:9 NWT).
Lastly, Revelation 7:15 makes it abundantly clear that the Great Crowd, their robes also washed by the blood of Christ, is in heaven because that is where God’s temple and his throne are; the Great Crowd is seen in His temple where they worship Him day and night.
15 That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. (Rev. 7:15 NWT).
The psalmist at Psalm 11:4 tells us where God’s temple is and where his throne is, and by virtue of Revelation 7:15 we know where the Great Crowd stands worshiping the Almighty, namely, in heaven.
“Jehovah is in his temple,
Jehovah - in the heavens is his throne.” -
bnybyt
as in Matthew 11:17
'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.'
some people just refuse to be moved by any amount of evidence.
With most JWs whatever the WT says is the "Truth" no matter what evidence there is against it.
Their eyes are blinded and their ears are stuffed up by the WT; they're under mind control.
But if a new WT article comes out reversing a teaching 180 degrees they'll swear that's "the Truth".
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wha happened?
I forgot about Mathew 11:17. I remember dubs using that to ahow that some people won't be moved regardless of fact. Were they in reality, talking about themselves?
Not to sound like a JW puke but whenever I would get to a door and I started getting hit with all the "before the throne" quotes and such. I would turn my bible to Rev 1:1 and read that it was presented in signs. So then I would say, "It's not literal but rather it was a vision. So are we really going to see what the vision represents?" And then sometimes I would add, "So it's not literal that the crowd is in heaven, but rather that the great crowd has a special place to Jehovah and therefore, metaphorically, before the throne."
I think I just threw up a little. Sorry. I'm surprised I even remembered that
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hijosdelawatch
Once an elder wanted to speak with the young ones of the congregation on spiritual matters. Someone asked an elder how is it possible that in nearly 1900 years there were no God's servant on earth. He didn't answer.
I also asked about the infamous 144,000. I told him that if we subtract to that number the annointed in our days since the end of the 19th century, we could have the number of christians in the first 19 centuries of christianity. So I said I couldn't understand the small number of truly christians in the past. The majority of first century christians were dissaproved?
And finally, a logical doubt. If you do something dissaproved in a certain time but then it's approved by "a new light", should they revise your case if they DFed you?
It makes no sense. He just said: "Don't think too much. We just can obbey the instructions coming from the GB".
Thereafter, he just speaked with us about sports.
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jonathan dough
And then sometimes I would add, "So it's not literal that the crowd is in heaven, but rather that the great crowd has a special place to Jehovah and therefore, metaphorically, before the throne."
That means the 144,000 aren't in heaven either, right? Same language, "before the throne."
I had hoped my arguments above had dispensed with that "metaphorical" talk; they so often resort to that when they lack another answer. JWs have a hard time with logic. You can prove them wrong ten different ways and they just revert back to spewing what the lawyers told them to spew. If there is no habitable post-armagedon earth, there is no place for the Great Crowd to reside on earth, and they can't be ruled over from heaven by the 144,000. Therefore they claim Peter was speaking in metaphor. Nonsense.
Granted, the Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe the earth will be destroyed and base this teaching in large part on Psalm 37:29 where the psalmist wrote, "The just will possess the land (earth) and live in it forever." However, the earth "wears out like a garment (Isa. 51:6), so the word "forever" is hyperbole, and nothing here indicates that there won't be a hiatus, or break, in the earth's habitation. Psalm 37:29 does not say man will inherit the earth continuously without interruption, and Revelation 21:10,27 suggests that reconstituted, glorified man, without the warts, will come back down out of heaven sometime in the future: "He took me in spirit to a great high mountain and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God." "Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life."
Actually, the earth has experienced significant disruptions evidenced by the annihilation of the dinosaurs and great flood of Noah's day. Remember, we are dealing with geologic time, and cycling through another ice age that would wipe off the post-apocalyptic mess left in the wake of Armageddon is entirely within reason; it is more reasonable than handing the Great Crowd brooms and haz-mat suits and ordering them to restore the earth into a paradise.
More to the point is Peter's comparison of the earth's pending fiery destruction to the great flood which is a real, not metaphorical, example of earth's fate as detailed at 2 Peter 3:5-13: "They deliberately ignore the fact that the heavens existed of old and earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God; through these the world that then existed was destroyed, deluged with water. The present heavens and earth have been reserved by the same word of fire kept for the day of judgment and of destruction of the godless." Jesus likewise made it known that ultimate destruction will be modeled after the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, where Luke 17:29 makes it abundantly clear God destroyed them all. That man's governments are changed in the process goes without saying. Remember, "...he was seated on the throne and said, "Behold, I am making all things new. (Rev. 21:5).The Great Crowd can't be on earth because it's destined for fire and complete destruction which is made clear by 2 Peter 3:10,11: "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a mighty roar and the elements will be dissolved by fire and the earth and everything in it will be found out. ... everything is to be dissolved this way," (NAB; "Total destruction is assumed (11)," notes 3,10). "...the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat" (2 Peter 3:12). "But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men" (2 Peter 3:7). Peter's warning reemphasized Zephaniah's warning, where the ancient prophet transmitted the Almighty's words, "I will utterly consume all things from off the face of the ground, saith Jehovah. I will consume man and beast; I will consume the birds of the heavens, and the fishes of the sea, and the stumbling blocks with the wicked; and I will cut off man from off the face of the ground, saith Jehovah" (Zephaniah 1:2,3)
Complete destruction of man on earth is intended. " Their blood will be poured out like dust and their entrails like dung. 18 Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to save them on the day of the LORD’s wrath.” In the fire of his jealousy the whole earth will be consumed, for he will make a sudden end of all who live on the earth (Zephaniah 1:17, 18). The Jehovah's Witnesses theory that they alone, their great crowd, will survive Armageddon and be ruled from heaven by the 144,000 is simply not in accord with Scripture.
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ziddina
Wow, OutSmart...
I am so sorry to hear that....
But I have a crazy suggestion....
If there is some way in which you could initiate a situation in which she must research a NON-BIBLICAL subject - like how to get better gas mileage, how best to prevent meat from spoiling after it is cooked, safe driving habits that prevent accidents [cell-phone use springs to mind...] - some subject which interests or concerns her...
Get her to DO the research - take a mildly opposed position...
And then....
No matter WHAT she says, no matter HOW MUCH EVIDENCE she presents about the subject, YOU TAKE THE CULT-MENTALITY STANCE.
"No, that's not what it says...."
"No, I'm sure that's not what they meant...."
"No, I'm sure they meant to say/write this instead, despite what you see there...."
This could also work especially well when reading maps for a drive in the country. Get yourself good and lost, then take the "CULT" position.
Don't take it TOO far - we don't want you getting divorced over a drive in the country, but....
Keep on doing it.
For every single small issue, non-biblical [and non-life-threatening...] situation in your life, when she's taking the fact-based approach, deny the facts with practically the same words that she's using to block the accurate information about the Watchtower Corporation....
Hopefully she'll wake up before her head explodes from frustration...
[By the way - the reason I know so much about THIS tactic, is that hubby does something similar to me - but in HIS case, he's discounting my mind because he has a college degree and I don't....]
Zid
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zagor
Some things take time. We all change and way we think and see things can radically change sometimes rapidly sometimes it takes few years. My ex has just graduated with her BA in psychology. Talking to her now and few years ago is like talking to a different person all together. In fact, I probably wouldn't be even coming to this board were it not for discussion we had in last few days. From a staunch pro-watchtower zealot she has turned into a person that now questions everything. Something I always hoped for her to become but eventually have given up on. She is still going to meetings every now and then apparently but if she continues thinking the same way she showed to me last couple of days I'd be surprised if before long she joins this forum lol
When people invest time and energy into something that has formed their opinions and ways of thinking they can't just turn around. They need to see things for themselves. And fair enough. I say people need space and time to collect facts, compare notes as it were, and re-form how they see things.
Don't forget first impressions are powerful thing regardless if they were wrong or factual. Likewise, her first impressions of 607 vs 587BC were formed through sanitized literature of WTBS. Then they got solidify through repetition and hammering of the same. Then all of a sudden you come with something that in one sweeping move topples the tower of her entire belief system. She's not gonna turn around and thank you for it. Everything that she is, is fighting inside of her. She is trying to find holes in your arguments, dismissing what you say as irrelevant or even accusing you of trying to control her thinking.
What she needs is time, space and freedom to see things for herself.