America bashing, love and pride.

by Norm 49 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Norm

  It is indeed strange, yet understandable to observe the "kneejerk" reactions you get when you point out possible
  flaw's with the mighty US of A, "God's own country". Even from people who should have learned NOT to have that
  kind of trust in anything.

  Much of the reactions are of course highly emotional and as such tend to be quite incoherent. It never fails to amuse me
  when I see people who haven't even ventured into the neighbouring state declare the US the best place to live in the world. A world they know absolutely nothing about and isn't even interested to know about. The only things that anyone seem be dead sure about is the things they know the least about. It is also amusing to see people declare their pride in being Ameican, proud of being black, white etc.

  I can't understand how anyone can have any "pride" in such things. To be born black or white, born in Germany, the US or India is just
  sheer coincidence we could't do anything about it. We had no influence and say in it. Is it any reason to be proud because you happen to be born rich?

  If you are born in Saudi-Arabia, Yemen or anywhere else in that region, chances are overwhelming that you will be a Muslim.
  If born in India, most likely a Hindu and most likely poor. If you are born a female in some rural areas in India, you might get strangled after birth. In some areas in the world a girl will get mutilated with socalled "circumcisions".
  Many places in the world, merely being born is a very serious business.

  All we are and all we will ever be is simply human beings, which have been thrown into existence by accident.
  Do we have reson to be proud because we are human beings?
  Not in my opinion, just another coincidence. Looking at human history doesn't help much either. I am not proud to be Norwegian,
  I am not proud of my country, I do not love it. It was a coincidence that I was born here. It just so happens that it is a good place to live. I was very fortunate being born here but is that a reason for pride? Should I love this piece of rock? Of course not.

  When you see what some men do, there is of course no reason
  to be proud of being a man either, after all it is just another coincidence that I happen to be born with a penis. Some times I am actually ashamed to be a man.

  I might love other people, some people are really worth loving and some you love simply because they are your children, parents etc. The only thing we could possibly be proud of and justifiably so, is if we endavour to treat each other in a decent way.

  Countries are of course at least as flawed as the people who govern them. The little flyspeck that I happen to live in are having the advantage of being, well, very small. It is run by the usual blend of incomepetent, gifted or really hopeless politicians just as any democracy.

  The US has the misfortune of being a World Power, and as such it is far more likely to come under scrutiny. Particularly when it's actions get too obviously hypocritical, when you are taking on the role as world police and claim to fight evil and "evildoers" people actually expect you to do something about those that they consider evildoers too. It comes as quite a shock to many that some "evildoers" are great guy's and others aren't. Maybe one man's evildoer is another man's hero?

  Norm
• 

  DanielHaase

  You make some good points. I've always had a problem with those who are proud of something that they had no control over (birthplace, race, etc.). When you consider this nation's history (Native American genocide, Vietnam, etc.) and current dealings (Irag sanctions, funding murder in Columbia, etc.), it's a bit difficult to just run out there and scream, "I'm proud of America!". You hear folks say we are great because we are democratic (forced into picking the lesser evil between two dipshits, no wonder less than 50% of us vote), we have capitalism (woohoo! Our middle class is shrinking and millions do not even make a living wage). I am grateful that I have the right to express these views, something I wouldn't have in many countries in the middle east. I have some hope for this country. But in the meantime, fuck pride! It gets you nowhere...

  "Brother, you better get down on your knees and pay...a thousand more fools are being born every f***ing day" -Bad Religion
• 

  Pathofthorns

  I thought your post was good Norm.

  At the same time, I think a little pride in one's home, their community and their country is not necessarily a bad thing. While one has no control over where they are born, every citizen shares (in theory) in making what his country is.

  American nationalism stands out from the normal love of country that many have around the world. It seems to almost be a religion indoctrinated from childhood that they are better than the rest of the world.

  To me this indoctrination seems to have come from everywhere and is like propaganda. Their role in the world and throughout history has been exagerated. Their knowlege of other cultures is weak.

  Nationalism is a tool governments use to control the people. It causes people to do the government's bidding, making decisions based more on emotion than rational thought. What better way to get mother's to give up their sons to go to war?

  America seems to be a good place for the wealthy and for big business. Otherwise, there actually do exist countries in the world besides America that are "free" (surprise surprise), have higher standards of living, have less blatant racism, have healthcare for everyone, are safer with less guns and have populations that have a better perspective of their place in the world.

  Path
• 

  Seeker

  path,

  I'm not trying to be argumentative, but did you re-read this section of your post?:

  American nationalism stands out from the normal love of country that many have around the world. It seems to almost be a religion indoctrinated from childhood that they are better than the rest of the world.

  To me this indoctrination seems to have come from everywhere and is like propaganda. Their role in the world and throughout history has been exagerated. Their knowlege of other cultures is weak.

  Nationalism is a tool governments use to control the people. It causes people to do the government's bidding, making decisions based more on emotion than rational thought. What better way to get mother's to give up their sons to go to war?

  You say America is not this way, yet your description fits America perfectly. Americans are taught that they are better than people elsewhere, by means of propaganda, their role in the world is exaggerated, their knowledge of other cultures is weak, we are emotionally controlled through nationalism into doing the government's bidding, making decisions based more on emotion than rational thought, so as to cheer when our sons go off to the war on terror.

  Seriously, this fits America perfectly.
• 

  Pathofthorns

  Seeker..

  You are messing me up this morning (lol). That is what I was trying to say. I was describing America.

  Path
• 

  Seeker

  ROFL, you are so right! My mistake. When you said it "stands out" from the rest of the world, and then proceeded to describe nationalism, I read it as if you were desciribing nationalism in the rest of the world in contrast to America.

  Sorry about that. No wonder what you wrote fit America so well! [:)}
• 

  patio34

  Norm, Path, & Seeker,

  Oh, the irony of it all. I just escape the JWs and their neutrality and start to get involved in the upcoming elections, patriotism, etc. and now it's all much more involved than i thought. I was so happy to be able to be part of this country, but now y'all have me rethinking my extent.

  Seeker, I have a few of Noam Chomsky's books now. Thanks for the tip.

  It's not easy for me to be so humble/humiliated here to admit this, but i'm a complete neophyte as far as world politics, etc. is involved. Fortunately for me, the net offers so much more information to process.

  Ah well, there's always some new horizon to seek out.

  Thanks for the stimulating discussions!

  Pat

  

  WTBS: Quit peeing on my leg and telling me it's raining.
• 

  Amazing

  Hi Norm: I understand your points very well. I also belive, however, that there is an equal misunderstanding of America and Americans.

  Children will say that thier parents are the best in the world. A husband or wife will say that their mate is the best in the world. These statements do not mean that people really believe that they have landed in the best family on earth. Rather, it is a sense of closeness and love that motivates statements of strong loyalty.

  Americans strongly and openly criticize their own government, their businesses, their states, counties, and cities. When we are attacked, we ban together because we are deterined to make sure our openness and freedom are secure.

  Contrary to what you say about Americans not even in terested in nations around them is false. Americans travel a great deal and love other nations and cultures. We have done a lot to preserve cultural diversity here in the USA. The problem most Americans have is that we are not wealthy, and cannot afford to travel much outside the USA.

  We have also spent over the last 200 years overcoming our European heritage. A heritage that began nearly 300 years before the USA was formed. It was Europeans, primarily French, Spanish, and English that invaded this land and killed off the native Indians. So as you say, our current generation was born here by chance. We did not kill off the Idnians, wipe out the Azteks and 100 other tribes and their cultures or steal their gold. We inherited what was brought here.

  While Europeans have made great strides in becoming mature democracies, the USA has done so as well. We are all together trying. While criticism is good, healthy, and needed ... also fairness, and realistic assessment are important to understanding social and political developments.

  Americans do not have the long historical culture as do most European nations ... we are rather a mixture of many nationalities over hundreds of years ... we instead are bound together not by blood, but by an ideal. We understand that most mature nations share our same ideals with little difference except in means and methods, and even these share much in common. Instead, our bonds are an effort to draw closer together as a nation, to act as a family as much as possible, to support and strengthen one another.

  So, our claims of being the "best" are not meant to exclude the greatness or advancement of other nations ... we at times look to models other nations set ... Great Britain is our model for law for example ... but our claims of beins the best are a cultural way of expressing a strong sense of community ... a community where we are trying to show more than mere human acceptance, but also love.

  Recently, one of my struggling tenants and I got into a heated debate over rent and maintenance. We talked about community and love for one another. We ended up cutting a deal that works for both, and now we are friends ... why? Because in fact there is community, a sense of family, and we are not out to screw one another ... The tenant was struggling and behind in rent. The deal cut reduced back rent 50%, and cut current rent according to his income so his business can survive ... and we can pay the mortgage on the plaza. We are cutting other better deals for tenants. The moral is high and their businesses are picking up.

  This is just one example of what people in America do to work together as a team, a community, and a sense of family ... and it all translates into our sense of national unity. No, the USA is not best in the sense of depriving other nations their due for their good, but our sense of "best" is found in a sense of community and family much as my initial example above.

  Do we have serious problems? Yep! Have other nations done better in solving or reducing similar problems? Yep! What matters to us here in the USA is our sense of determination to continue to improve and adress our problems, perhaps copying the models set by other nations, and perhaps coming up with some better solutions.

  So I hope that people like yourself in many other nations can come to appreciate what Americans mean by our statements, and come to apprecaite that we are realists ... and we are not what many think of ... that is we are not the image that is painted about us in your own media. We are a young nations still by comparison, and with that comes growth and struggle ... but we are nonetheless a good nation with a strong sense of family, community, and national love.
• 

  Cowboy

  What's wrong with pride?I realize that like most other things,too much of it's a bad thing,but I think a certain amount of pride is a healthy thing.I'm proud to be an American,but I don't see that as a slight to other nations.It doesn't make me feel superior to you,Norm,or anyone else,just because you're from another country.At the same time,I don't feel inferior,either.

  Is the view of most Americans toward the world fairly narrow?I'm sure it is,in most cases though,it's not because we want it to be,it's because it takes all of most peoples time and money to care and provide for their family.Many Americans simply don't have the opportunity to travel and see first hand what the rest of the world has to offer.I honestly believe,though,that Americans are far more aware of the rest of the world than most of the peoples of the world.

  Great thread...

  BTW Patio-Please don't change your mind about participating in elections,or trying to be involved in your government.Despite what were taught as JW's,we ARE a part of this world,and we have just as much right and responsibility as anyone to be heard.

  'Nuff Said,
  Cowboy

  We ride and never worry about the fall
  I guess that's just the cowboy in us all
• 

  Farkel

  Of course, you are right, Norm. I have an explanation (other than government-induced Nationalism) that explains why people everywhere want to think they are somehow superior to people everywhere else:

  Everyone wants to be a "somebody." People who are not famous, infamous, influential, or rich can always lay claim to their superiority by the color of their skin, their religion or where they happen to be born.

  Even in the little San Diego community of Ocean Beach where I've lifed off-and-on for many years you can see this phenomenon. Natives of Ocean Beach consider themselves somehow superior to non-Natives. Even natives of San Diego are considered inferior, yet Ocean Beach is a San Diego community.

  Little people have their little pettiness. Everyone wants to be a someone.

  Farkel

  "I didn't mean what I meant."