America bashing, love and pride.

by Norm 49 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Mozzer4Life

  Amazing, couldn't agree with you more.
  As for feeling a sense of pride for something we have no control over, well, I see nothing wrong with that. Take two guys who just bought a Porsche...one who bought it 'cause it looks cool and is fast, and the other bought one because he has always been an avid enthusiast and loves Porsche's long and illustrious heritage. Which one would be the better owner...I believe the later of the two. Both had nothing to do with designing, testing, or manufacturing of, they just made money like the rest of us and bought one.

  Yea, America isn't perfect, but for a relatively young country, we're doing pretty damn good. We've got some serious marks against us, slavery and Native Americans, but we can't change the past...we have to look at what we are doing now, and for the most part, I feel it is something to be...proud of.

  "I think about life
  And I think about death
  And neither one particularly appeals to me" - Morrissey
• 

  fodeja

  Although discussions of this kind are really beginning to tire me because I can't seem to get something new out of them, this here is quite an interesting statement:

  I honestly believe,though,that Americans are far more aware of the rest of the world than most of the peoples of the world.

  Now, OK, I haven't seen all of the world (never been to Asia or Australia, for instance), I haven't spent years in the USA (only months), but...BWAHAHAHAHAHA...HAHAHAHA!

  *wiping tears from my eyes*

  Sorry about that. Seriously, in no country of this world I've been to have I encountered the same degree of ignorance (and in some cases, deliberately chosen total ignorance) about the outside world, as in the USA. Just about any person who comes to the USA from outside of North America will tell you similar things, and will be quite shocked to see how insignificant media coverage of non-US events is. While it would be a wild exaggeration to say that all "Americans" are isolationists living in a box, there are quite a few of that kind, and in my experience, definitely not just the poor and uneducated.

  For a start, take any half-serious US newspaper or TV station. Compare it to any half-serious European newspaper or TV station. Spot a difference? I'm quite certain that this experiment would have similar results with, e.g., Asian media.

  And no, it's not just about money for travelling (heck, I did most of my early USA travelling on a shoestring budget!). It's about being interested. The rest follows naturally.

  Case in point: before mid-September last year, most USians probably couldn't even say which hemisphere and continent Afghanistan's on, let alone spell the name - and now all of a sudden, an entire country of certified Afghanistan experts! So, war isn't just good for the economy, it's also good for education! That W guy is a genius! Now, if he would only know the difference between deflation and devaluation...

  f.
• 

  fodeja

  Getting back to the topic:

  What's wrong with pride?

  I think Norm's point is that in his world (and mine, too), the concept of "pride" is usually reserved for your own accomplishments. You can love your country, you can hate it, but how can you be proud of it?

  I can't be proud of being born in a certain place - it was coincidence. I can't be proud of my home country's being a democratic nation - that was the work of many others. I can be proud of my own little efforts to keep that nation democratic.

  Whether that is "only" a semantic difference, or a difference in mind sets, I don't know.

  f.
• 

  Kent

  Hi fodeja;

  Just what I have tried to say, but you did it much better. Amazing is talking about all the travels Americans do abroad. How many percent of Americans do own a passport? In Norway it's close to 100%, just to take one example.

  How news is presented is interesting. How many US citizens do know the Winter Olymics is in the US these days? I bet most doesn't even know about it. Why? It's of no interest for media, since the US doesn't win a lot - and as such uninteresting.

  When I see the difference, even from the European Edition of CNN - and BBC - you just have to wonder. And watching US news-channels tells me the reason why people really don't know what's going on elsewhere. I have been contacted by people in universities, telling me their friend is trying to escape from the Watchtower, and they wonder if I can pop in and visit her. She was living in Schwarzwald - in the south of Germany! Quite a trip from Norway to visit someone :)

  Unfortunately the pride and nationalism makes it difficult to discuss such matters. This because a lot of people normally starts screaming about "bashing". It's not - personally I really try to find out what's really going on - and why people are the way they are. I always thought it was strange when I was presented with a "world view" so totally upside down I simply couldn't believe it - but I'm starting to understand why.

  I also do understan why all (except for a few) cults starts in the US. The people there seems to be used to manipulating from the day they are born....

  Yachyd Da

  Kent

  I need the new KM's as they come! Please send me scans!

  Daily News On The Watchtower and the Jehovah's Witnesses:
  http://watchtower.observer.org
• 

  LDH

  US States I have visited or lived in extensively:
  New Hampshire
  Rhode Island
  Massachusets
  Maine
  Connecticut
  New York
  New Jersey
  Pennsylvania
  Maryland
  Virginia
  W. Virginia
  Kentucky
  Ohio
  Tennessee
  N. Carolina
  S. Carolina
  Georgia
  Alabama
  Mississippi
  Florida
  Louisiana
  Texas
  Oklahoma
  New Mexico
  Nevada
  Arizona
  California
  Utah
  Hawaii
  Missouri
  Illinois
  Michigan

  Countries I have visited extensively:

  Mexico
  Canada

  Countries I have visited:
  Belize
  Dominican Republic
  Italy
  Israel
  Egypt
  Greece
  Venezuela

  US Territorial Possesions where I have lived:
  Puerto Rico

  Yes, I am very well travelled. Each state, contrary to popular opinion, has its own mood and environment.

  I have not as of yet had the privilege of visiting the East, which we hope to do within the next three years, or the Nordic Countries.

  I realize I'm FAR from the 'average' American when it comes to exposure to different ethnicities. And, you are right, I had nothing to do with how I got here or where I landed.

  But, does that make pride in my home nation BAD? Not at all.

  I have pride in my home. It's not the most beautiful or palatial home in the world, but it's clean and well kept.

  I have pride in my city, one of only ten cities in the US
  designated All-America City. Not because it's perfect, but because we are aware of the problems we have and we're working on fixing them.

  I have pride in the county (province) in which I live. It is the single largest Agricultural producing county in the world. As a matter of fact, my county coupled with the surrounding 4 counties provides over 50% of the fruits and vegetables sold here in the US. I'm not a farmer, but I'm lucky enough to count several as my friends. Every time I go to farmer's market, I'm proud to know the earth where I live sustains vegetation, so that people can live and thrive.

  I have pride in the state in which I live, California. We are the craziest bunch of amalgamated people in the States, but we are making it work. California is home to almost 100 ethnic groups. People are friendly and willing to give you a chance, even if you don't look like them or believe what they do. Wait, everyone except JWs that is.

  Norm, I can't help but have pride in my home. And I don't think it's a bad thing.

  Watching the Olympics is wonderful. Those athletes are the best of the best. And they wear the flags of their homes. Even though a ton of foreign athletes live and train in the US when they don their uniform, it's of their home country.

  I never lose sight of how lucky I am Norm, to be living this life. And it makes me proud.

  Yes, I'm voting on March 5. You better believe it. Some citizens of other countries don't have a voice, and some of them don't even get to pick which nimrod runs their country. At least we get to pick.

  Lisa
• 

  ThiChi

  That’s why we must form the United Federation of Planets now.......and put in place the Prime Directive to protect other races of peoples we encounter...who is with me?
• 

  plmkrzy

  Some might say this topic is over my head BUT, my 2 cents anyway.
  I think this country was founded on and certainly built on manipulation. Don't get me wrong. I love my country just the same as anyone else. I just believe were are probably the most gullible and easily influenced of all people's. Were tough because of the ones who really run this country and we are happy to go along. Some may take offense at that but it's true. The constant and never ending messages that are pumped into us our entire lives keeps us in a very cooperative frame of mind. Our government controls us with our own emotions and I don't know if being in denial of that is a good thing or a bad thing. So far I guess it has been a good thing. It could change in the future. The next 50 years are going to probably be incredible years to live in as far as world changes go.
  It will be interesting anyway. But as for Americans, most are self centered, sorry but it's true. The majority of Americans will gladly send in donations or contributions to help starving children of the world but in reality there are only a handful that send in donations or contribute from there hearts. For most it's a tax right. Business.Tell me to f**k off if you like but this country didn't get where it is in such a short period of time by having the same attitude as the natives who laid out the first welcome rug. Most Americans have an attitude about education that focus's on getting ahead, that doesn't stray far from home. It's sad but true. Percentage wise I bet the average American can count on their fingers the number of people they know that regularly travel around the world or bother to seek out and learn about other cultures. A lot travel yahoo! but I'm not talking about "Club Med." And those who really have a desire to learn more about other places usually are the middle or low income and can't afford 3 and 4 thousand $$ adventures. Those who can easily afford them don't give a shit. (ducking under my computer) I had to save for 3 months just to fly accross the state to visit my mom. I couldn't afford to take my kids. They fly also one at a time. One year one goes the next year the other goes.I'm not exactly poor either. If I lived in a different state my expenses would be a lot less but it would cost three times as much to fly.

  plmkrzy
• 

  borgfree

  I had promised myself that I would not post on this topic, but I cannot seem to stop myself. Here is my 2 cents.

  I think there is another reason why some Americans show pride in being a citizen of this country, or being male, or white, etc. I think I fit into that category.

  A mother who did not show prejudice raised me from birth and taught her children to show no prejudice. We were taught to consider ourselves less than others (I don’t remember the scripture reference) There were some things that happened in my teens that started changing my feelings toward some people. I will not go into the details because I believe some on this forum would immediately dispute what is in fact truth and more anger would be caused.

  What I have seen over the past several decades is a growing animosity towards “Americans” but when you analyze what that means, it comes down to this. Women are given a pass because of course they are gentle people and do not start wars etc. American Indians are given a pass because “Americans”(?) have victimized them, black people are given a pass because they were victimized and made slaves, homosexuals are given a pass because they are victims and are not violent people.

  You can go on and on until you arrive at just exactly who are the “Americans” that are seen as the bad people. White, straight, Christian men.

  I believe there are ulterior motives in all this. I have seen white men in power kissing the rear ends of all sorts of people for years now and all that is accomplished is more blame and accusations heaped onto white men.

  The more “Americans” give, the more is demanded from them. I am frankly tired of the abuse heaped upon me and other “Americans”

  I have mostly arrived at this conclusion, and I think many others have also, I will do the best I can, I will make decisions I think are best for me, my children, and progeny, I will try my best to not do harm to other people. But if I, or we, are attacked I will fight back with everything I have to fight back with.

  I think that people in other countries can disagree with us all they want, but when the chips are down, they will be our friends, or our enemies. No neutrals.

  And, I agree with the old saying, “the best defense is a good offense”

  "A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents, but rather because its opponents die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it." Max Planck
• 

  Cowboy

  OK,I haven't traveled outside of North America,but the reasons are lack of time and money,not lack of interest.Obviously,I can't compare our media coverage to that of other countries,nor do I really know whether or not the average Norwegian or Brit knows more or less about world affairs than the average American does.If they do,that doesn't make them any better than we are.As I said before,I know that keeping up with world affairs is not as important to Americans as keeping up with their bills.

  After reading this thread,I suspect that pride does mean something different to most Americans than to others.You say it's fine to love our country,but not to be proud of it...I don't understand how you can love anything (or anyone) and not be proud of it.I am proud of my country,of my home,and of who I am.If you can't be proud of those things,then it's your loss.

  Cowboy

  We ride and never worry about the fall
  I guess that's just the cowboy in us all
• 

  ofcmad

  Alright - here is my two cents.. and some of it has already been mentioned.

  America is unique. Where else is there a country that is so culturally diverse, and that diversity protected as in the USA? Yes, there are injustices, but America never claims perfection.

  State another country that has been able to hold a constitution as long as the USA. Although its been 200+ years since the constitiution has been enacted, there has only been a few admendments to it. The fathers of the US Constitution had the foresight to keep the power out of the hands of one individual and give the power to the masses, even tho this is a republic.

  This is a great country.

  ofcmad