Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible

by flamegrilled 238 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • wobble
    wobble

    The letter to the Hebrews, whoever wrote it, was probably written around the end of the first century. You may claim earlier, but I would wish to see proof, and anyway the later the better if you are going to claim some extensive organizational arrangements.

    Even around 90CE the churches would have been little more than House Churches, what evidnece is there for more ? So, the "leaders" who are referred to would be Apostles if any were still alive, and those taking the lead in establishing the congregations that existed.

    I am at present doubtful that to base ones life now on what was written 2000 years ago is a good idea in a literal sense, but if you are determined to do so, I can see little for you to dobut to join the smallest group of Chrisitans you can find who stick rigidly to the Gospel that Paul preached, as he hinmself said to the Galations:

    "it doesn't matter if that person is one of us, or an angel from heaven, I have said it before and I will say it again, I hope God will punish anyone who preaches anything different from what you have already believed". Gal. 1 v8&9 C.E.V

    Now, Paul wrote the above words around 55CE it is estimated, so the teahing at that time was the simple Gospel the first followers of Christ took to unbelievers, nothing more, so beware of groups you wish to join who add to that simple message i.e "Christ resurrected".

  • elderelite
    elderelite

    FG, again i ask, where in the stament about the goodnews being preached do you see the word organization? Where did jesus command us to form a billion dollar company and print magazines?

    It was a statment of fact that the good news wouldnt be limited to one group, not a command. Even our organization dosent preach the whole world. Its large, but no where near the earth....

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    Flamegrilled, (mmmm I smell it)

    You said you "accept the whole of the N.T" , I wonder what you mean by that ? as a guide to life in principle ? or as the word of God?

    My position is constantly in a state of flux, the more I learn, on here and elsewhere I don't know what to think in fixed way, but could you please explain what you mean exactly, and why you feel what believe is worth hanging on to, even if perhaps it is not correct ?

  • wasblind
    wasblind

    Good Mornin' FG

    There are questions I have asked Witnesses who stop by, but they can never give me a clear answer too

    I think the problem is because they are caught off guard and when they discuss with others, they are probably

    told not to return, don't know for sure

    But I am very glad that you are here because you can respond in your own time

    and hopefully you won't feel put on the spot to the things that are pointed out

  • punkofnice
    punkofnice

    Welcome to the forum flamegrilled!

    . Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Flaaaaaamegriiiilllllllled!

    I’ll try to answer your questions as best I can. If I seem curt I do not mean to be. I’m perhaps not able to express what I mean as gracefully as others here.

    Also, I’m not sure if you are searching or just interested in other’s thoughts.

    1) By this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (John 13:35). Sure I know that not all JWs do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine JWs will NOT kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.

    Oooooh, where to start?!?!? Rutherford sided with Hitler as has been proven here many times with quotes (in context) from his publications. There were JW snitches in the concentration camps who saw their brothers die and went on to enjoy ‘privileges’ after the war. It’s worth researching. Sadly my friend, JWs DO kill! The blood issue is illogical. Why accept fractions but not blood? There is NO scriptural reason for this weird belief and people have died for it. ‘Disfellowshipping’ was originally seen as of ‘pagan origin’ by the watchtower (see Awake! Jan 8 th 1947), and yet they now employ this ‘crowd control’ tactic not necessarily for things that are perceived as ‘sins’ but for simply disagreeing with the Governing Body and their doctrines/laws. This has lead to break up of families and even suicide. Why? For a current watchtower law that has roots in pagan religion. It has been proven that the watchtower is currently enjoying shares in a company that develops products for the military. Can a JW work in an arms factory and not get into trouble with the watchtower’s rules?

    2) Preach the good news. Sure I know other religions try to an extent, but JWs are known for their preaching. One might disagree with the details of the message but I don't want to get into that here. They do certainly direct attention to God, Jesus and the kingdom.

    But it isn’t productive. How many of the ones that get baptized from ‘first call’? Aren’t most JW ‘born ins’? If god reads hearts then are the JWs not condemning to death those that refuse the watchtower? Considering that only JWs will survive Armageddon as per w89 9/1 p19 para 7. There are other reasons for the door knocking but I don’t want to get into that here either. As for the ‘good news’ one really needs to actually see what the definition of that ‘good news’ is in the Bible not the watchtower’s own definition. At 1 Cor 15:1-7 you’ll find the ‘good news’ is different to watchtower rules. Sorry but I disagree that JWs ‘direct attention to God, Jesus and the kingdom’. Their concept is subject to constant change under ‘new light’. That’s a topic for another thread all on it’s own.

    3) Gather together in worship. I include this one since I understand the arguments put forth in Ray Franz's book, but the NT really seems to be clear that some level of organized worship is required "and even more so as you behold the day drawing near".

    I’ve tried to chat about this with Mrs Punk when she asked this but her JW force field went up and she ended up shouting at me. Getting together is a great social dynamic. If the people gathered together all believe the same thing, be it Mormonism, Purple Unicorns or the watchtower they will strengthen each other’s belief. (Even though the belief is just a delusional crutch). I went into a Baptist church amongst others and I observed the same dynamic as I had observed at the kingdom hall (but without the sneering judgmental attitudes).

    how do I identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:

    There is a niche for everyone and this is true of religion. Unlike the watchtower that enforces an ‘us vs: them’ mentality other religions don’t. The watchtower is a jealous master and implants the concept that if you don’t believe in the watchtower corporations’ ideals you have to go somewhere else with dire consequences. This is based on a scripture that has been misquoted.

    This is a logical fallacy. If my house was on fire I wouldn’t wait for another one to come on the market before I moved out!

    In answer to the ‘where else will you go?’ question…….well, we’re all grown up now. We can choose our own niche. Especially given we all have different needs so there will be disagreement over the definitive place to go. Remember that if you want to be a ‘Christian’ then the ‘truth’ is a person not a publishing corporation. Jesus himself said: ‘I am..the truth.’ John 4:16.

    Anyway, enjoy your search, only YOU hold the answer my friend.

    Will you let me know how you are getting on? Peace and love to you from your Uncle Paolo.

  • Lily Pie
    Lily Pie

    Hey. I never really come to this site. But I felt like a lurk tonight. And I happened upon this. And I think I can help so I will try a reply.

    Love amongst themselves. I'm drawn to 1Corin 13 Love never ends, all will pass away. The one thing that will remain is love. Love is a fruit of the Spirit. Christians will manifest deep love for people, and most importantly they fall in love with God. This love is almost supernatural. Find a church family with genuine love. This love must be full of Grace (Unmerited favor) there must be no conditions placed on it. It must not be an 'effort' or 'work' for the person supplying it. The only work of God is to 'believe' John 6v29 This is because the Spirit does the rest. Jeremiah 31:33-34 also Hebrews 10:16-17 also Ezekiel36v25 john7:38

    Preach the Good News. In Acts, Paul is 'led" by the Spirit showing him who and where the gospel was to be targetted. The disciples were also 'filled' with the Holy Spirit for preaching the Gospel. The majority of Christians will be led by the Spirit into many different life circumstances where we will meet the very people God is looking to target. Let me explain.. There is no such thing as a coincidence... Because we know this, and God speaks to us directly in many ways, we will have the confidence to introduce Jesus to our acquaintance in just the right way and time. Other Christians will have a bolder Calling. They Pastor or lead groups reaching out to the community at large. All Christian churches also have free groceries, meals, accomodation and even transport solutions for the most vulnerable in our community. Usually the most despised people in our community I might add. Also Christian churches will financially support missions. The congregation will get updates on these missions the church is specifically helping to fund. Many of the churches members will have done some mission work. Mission is basically planting churches. Have you heard of Gideons? Is there any bible in any hospital, hotel room or waiting room that was not placed there by that particular Christian (non denom) organisation?

    Gather together for worship. The church is the Bride of Christ. God takes what the world thinks is foolish and glorifies it. Jesus Christ was crucified, put to shame. It is totally laughable to the ancient world, and even in the modern world that we would call our Wonderful King - a man who was crucified. A death dealt only to the despised and ugly, as it was even illegal for Roman citizens to be executed this way. How fitting then that the bride of Christ is the Church, an ugly thing to those whos eyes have not been opened. Even long time Christians struggle with it. It is not neccesary to attend a particular church. But it is neccessary to have some Christian fellowship. If church does not suit many churches will have small bible studies or many other opportunities for social interaction. Anyone who belongs to Christ is a member of the Church. To belong to Christ one needs to 'know' God specifically through Jesus. John10 Also read 1Corin 12 regarding each playing the part determined by God for them to play in the Church.

    You need to pray on this. If you ask, and listen patiently, you will hear. xxx

  • N.drew
    N.drew

    Hebrews 10:25

    It is one of those things that has been passed down with an incorrect understanding.

    Hebrews 2:1 For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it.

    2:3 if we neglect so great a salvation

    2:10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory,

    2:13 I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

    2:15 and might free those 16 but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.

    3:3 For He has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, by just so much as the builder of the house has more honor than the house.

    3:6 whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

    3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

    3:10 "THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION, AND SAID, 'THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART, AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS';

    3:11 'THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.'" 12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.

    3:16 , did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

    4:6 Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,

    4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that.

    4:11 Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

    4:16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

    5:7 In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety

    6:1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

    6: 4-8 Talks about the people who fall away

    6:9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.

    6:11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end,

    6:18 so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us.

    7:19 (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

    7:25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

    8:2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man

    8:5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, "SEE," He says, "THAT YOU MAKE all things ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN WHICH WAS SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN."

    9:8 The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing,

    9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;

    9:15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

    9:18 Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood.

    10:1 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near.

    10:10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

    10:18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin. 19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus

    10 :25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

    Please tell me why the whole of Hebrews is about the gathering to the new covenent , then for one command the writer changes perspective and says gather together in the flesh?

    Please take into account the BEGINNING of the letter to the Hebrews that says again and again they were led astray in the wilderness. Now the writer is saying (Hebrews 10:25) do not give up the HOPE that ALL with assemble together AT THE LORDS RIGHT HAND.

    I was going to pick out a few scriptures that support Hebrews 10:25 as meaning spiritually, but the whole book supports it.

    Your Bible reading for the day, how about that?

  • wasblind
    wasblind

    One question I have ask Jehovah's witnesses is about scriptures

    Isaiah 43:10 " You are my witnesses is the utterance of Jehovah "

    and Acts 1:8 where Jesus said they would be " witnesses of him "

    Acts 19:17 states: " the name of the Lord Jesus went on being magnified"

    Acts 19: 20 states: " thus in a mighty way the word of Jehovah kept growing and prevailing."

    I don't see where Isaiah 43:10 over ride what Jesus commands in Acts 1:8

    after the birth , death , and resurrection of Christ things changed

    man no longer had to make animal sacrifices, and instead of preaching

    about his father, Jesus said to be witnesses of him

    Jesus had the authorization from the father to be able to command the things he

    said in act 1:8

  • N.drew
    N.drew

    Do not forsake the gathering together as some have the custom. Am I the only one who wanted to know what that meant?

  • flamegrilled
    flamegrilled

    wobble - point taken. And I do sometimes ask that basic question as to whether the Bible canon is the exact sum of what God inspired and wanted us to accept. Is there some truth in the apocryphal books, and are some of the established ones questionable. At present I accept that God is capable of preserving His word as he wanted it, despite who established the canon. But I am open to revision on that one if persuasive evidence is presented ot the contrary.

    elderelite - agreed about the preaching. But there is a responsibility for individual Christians to teach and make disciples, so this criterion would have to be met in some way even if not the exact way JWs do it.

    phizzy - word of God (see comments above for caveat though)

    punkofnice -

    Rutherford / Hitler. Agreed there was a measure of appeasement going on. I'm not convinced the intentions were all bad under the circumstances though. Don't get me wrong I'm not a huge Rutherford fan, but I keep an open mind and I can see that he was trying to make life easier for the witnesses at the time. Maybe he misjudged the best way to do that. I don't know. I've never heard anything about JW snitches. If you have references please could you post them. Even then I would have to take the general position as the measure, rather than a small number of isolated cases. But I would like to see it. Blood issue - agreed. It's inconsistent and probably fundamentally wrong. Disfellowshipping - possibly a correct principal badly applied. I don't agree with "anything goes" in the congregation though, I think there has to be some measures in extreme cases and I believe the precedent for that exists in scripture. Share in millitary interests? I'd have to see the evidence. Anyone who has share portfolios might have some money in the wrong place, but I'd be interested to see if there is evidence that such investments have been willfully made.

    Preaching unproductive? Maybe, but I have seen people get baptized as a result of door to door. Jesus didn't say how productive the work would be, so I don't think the productivity is a measure of whether it's right or not. The message - agreed - it's not exactly right in all cases, but for those who have no Bible knowledge I think it's still better than nothing.

    "If my house was on fire?" - that would be true if correct. Let's just say in my case there is a problem with the drains. If I could relocate to somewhere without the problem I would give it proper consideration, but I'm not yet convinced that leaving the house is the best option.

    Lily Pie - nice thoughts. Thanks.

    N.Drew - that's a different way to think about Heb 10:25. I'll have to give that some thought.

    wasblind - Yes. We should be witnesses of Jesus. I note that WTS must have noted this valid criticism, as there was a WT study to encourage this a few months back. But I agree with your point. The message isn't always quite right.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit