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Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible
by flamegrilled 238 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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charlie brown jr.
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tornapart
Flamegrilled, I have sent you a PM
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Miles3
Certain truths are important though. For example I think it would be difficult to get close to God and believe in eternal torment at the same time.
You mean, as if a cult taught that God will soon kill 7 billions people, including innocent children and babies that can't even understand words, even less read, as he did during the flood and at Sodome and Gomhora? And you can't honnestly say it's not the case, because that's exactly what the Watchtower teach - I know many Witnesses that try to delude themseves it's not the case, but the publications do say so, and when confronted they try to change the subject or say we have to trust in Jehovah - even though Jehovah already showed us exaclty what he would do... Thing is, children's right, along with women's right, is a modern invention, and the writers of the Bible certainly didn't have any problems with that. Which explain the treatment of women and childrens in the organisation - a direct consequence of fondamentalism when it comes to the Bible.
Althought hell is a spitefull doctrine, at least you can get out of it after having been punished enough, and innocent kids and babies aren't supposed to end up there. Eternal destruction less so, at least according to the Watchtower interpretation of the Scriptures.
Just hypothetically if someone responded and convincingly demonstrated that it was possible to meet those obligations without the baggage that comes with our current framework then I'd seriously consider a different course.
People can give you answers that conform with your frame of reference, because they do exist even in that context. But you have to realise your first post is basically saying "Hello, I've chosen to disregard 99% of the reliable information out there; along with reality and facts, and I help you can guide me without disturbing my beliefs." People will be nice and try to help you, because that's what people are, nice, but you must admit they'd be more confortable dealing with facts and reality. Basically, you're telling us you believe in the tooth fairy, don't want to debate about its existence, and are looking to another church that also teaches the tooth fairy.
At present I accept that God is capable of preserving His word as he wanted it, despite who established the canon. But I am open to revision on that one if persuasive evidence is presented ot the contrary.
There's pervasive evidence the Bible we have is contradicted by reality. Geology, biology (bats are mammals!), paleontology, biblical archeology (not the beginning of the 20th century biblical archeology by pastors, modern archeology and modern discoveries the Watchtowers never speaks about, because that would open a bag of hurt and destroy their business), and I'm certainly forgetting a lot.
The flood didn't happen, there's no traces of it and civilisations that started before it happened didn't disapear, the animal species wouldn't fit in the arch, no God that taught the Israelites to take care of their animals would have killed billions and billions of animals to punish at most a few thousands sinners.
We have hundreds of sites with human remains dated from up to 100.000 years BCE, along with two other subspecies, and traces of fabrics, potery, inhumations, that predates Adam and are dated with multiple methods and clocks moving at different speeds, yet pointing to the same dates.
Reptiles appeared before birds, contrary to what Genesis says.
There's zero traces of the Israelites in Egypt, nor of their exodus, 3 millions of people camping almost 40 years in the same place in desert leave an awfull amount of traces, yet despite all the excavations we've only showed there wasn't anybody there at the time.
The conquest of Canaan happened at a time where Egypt ruled the land and maintained guarnisons and corresponded with the main cities, yet no mentions of those Egytpian soldiers in the Bible, and no mention of any conquest in the 400 egyptian letters of the time.
David and Salomon might have existed, but they were ruling over a few thousand individuals, and Jerusalem remainded a small village up to 200 years after Salomon's death... Salomon is supposed to have ruled an immense empire, which it is impossible to do without correspondance between the empire and correspondance with the numerous countries the Bible says wanted to see Salomon. We've got records and correspondance from other countries of this period, yet no mention of Salomon, the Hebrew, or anything close to it. And Salomon's empire covers land that was part of other empires at the time, who we've got plenty of remains...
Unlike what the Bible says, the first Israelites worshipped a Yahweh married to a goddess, monotheism appeared late (opposed to the Bible's description of a monotheism that got corrupted by pagan influences over time).
Unlike what the Bible says, Nothern and Southern Israel were most prosperous and at peace under the "bad" kings, and suffered poverty and war under the intransigeant "faithfull" kings like Josias...
Persuasive evidence abounds, reality has an atheist bias. Sorry to burst your bubble, but open any recent archeology, paleontology, biology, etc... book and you'll have all the answers you need - not those you're looking for though. As far as morals go, I'd trust somebody that doesn't allow itself to distort the facts to fits its fancies over any fundamentalist. Just once, try associating with atheists, you'll discover they're far more honnest and have better morals than your current conditionnal friends. Christians are great as well, but unlike atheists it can be harder to find true Christians (I suggest charities for a start).
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flamegrilled
Miles3 - yes the morality of war is doctrinal. At its heart so is the exercising of agape love. Sure people of any or no religion do good things. But agape love is based on principle. If you are prepared to kill strangers rather than love them then I think that speaks volumes about true Christian values.
I'm sorry for your personal circumstance, but in all honesty what you describe has not been my experience. I have mostly seen positive things in the congregations. Sure there is always more that could be done, but I think most people have their heart in the right place. Again this is subjective since it comes down to personal experience, and I don't want to downplay your situation since I have not been through it.
I don't mean to judge regarding the preaching. I don't think I really have done that in anything I wrote, but apologies to anyone who feels that way. But when you say "That's what they do, or they wouldn't call themselves Christians" I would have to disagree with that generalization. Lots of people and groups call themselves Christian and clearly don't behave as such. We can go through examples but I think most people would agree that calling yourself Christian doesn't make you one. (as per Matt 7:22,23). You're likely right about the way the reporting arrangement is implemented though.
I'm not looking for a "carbon copy" I assure you. If I was then I wouldn't be having this discussion.
Regarding the use of a sword I'm not sure that's an entirely convincing argument. Jesus didn't seem to approve of Peter using it on another human.
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charlie brown jr.
You seem determined to find what "You need"..........
And I truly believe you will....
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tec
Tammy - Not sure exactly what you mean by "He is the only obligation". You've then gone on to quote scriptures that talk about "listening to him" and "obeying his commandments". That is fundamentally the point of this thread. Jesus commandments includes love, preach,
meet as per original scriptures quoted in my first post. I agree that Christ is the way, but there are further implications to acknowledging that. I agree that WTS may not be correct in every way, but that is why I am asking for someone to point out another way that
encompasses all those obligations that come with being Christian.
There is a contradiction here. You agree that Christ is the Way. But then ask if there is another way other than the WTS, that encompasses all the obligations that come with being Christian. But the only question is, is there another way other than Christ?
But there is no other way... only Christ. To be Christian, you must belong to Christ. You can choose to follow Him of course... but He chooses who He (and His Father) make their home with. (annointing of holy spirit)
Someone the page before made their point at the bottom of a long post :) You are letting the WT frame your questions for you.
Take 'preach' for e x ample. Did he say to "preach"? What did He mean by preach? (I think he said make disciples, but then I would also ask... is there only one way to make disciples?) Must you go door to door, or simply preach to those who come to you in a church, or simply speak with others about the love and peace and hope you have found (informal witnessing, the WTS calls this, I believe); can you also 'preach' without a word, by living a life of love and forgiveness and mercy and charity, etc? In this case, all manner of people are following the teaching of Christ. He also said to partake, did he not? And if he was only talking to the annointed then, then how does the WTS say that he was talking to everyone (annointed or not) about the preaching?
If the WTS follows some of the teachings of Christ, they also completely disregard others. Forgivness and mercy are not at the top of their list (as the df'ing/shunning and reinstatment process make clear); do not judge is overlooked a lot as well; in fact it seems to come with the territory. Not making people carry heavy loads... the leaders don't follow that. Christ also said to partake, did he not? (keep doing this... unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you) But if he was only talking to the annointed then, as the WTS says, then how do they say that he was talking to everyone (annointed or not) about the preaching work?
Christ is the Way. If you are unsure about what He wants from you, then ask Him to help and to guide you. No one else knows the truth, more than the Truth.
Peace to you,
Tammy
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AGuest
He also said to partake, did he not?... if he was only talking to the annointed then, then how does the WTS say that he was talking to everyone (annointed or not) about the preaching?
GOOD questions, dear tec (the greatest of love and peace to you!). GREAT questions!!
Peace to you!
YOUR servant, sister, and fellow slave of Christ,
SA, asking "Please, Lord... let someone who believes the WTBTS is/has the "truth" attempt to answer this one. Because I would LOVE to hear how they would explain this."
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ShadesofGrey
Yes Tammy!
Christ is the Way. If you are unsure about what He wants from you, then ask Him to help and to guide you. No one else knows the truth, more than the Truth.
He teaches those who ask Him to.
1 John 5:1;11-12 Everyone believing Jesus is the Christ has been born from God. And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life;
1 John 2:23, 27 Whoever has the Son has the Father also. The anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.
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factfinder
Hi Yknot! Glad you're back!
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wasblind
" wasblind - I don't want to get to bogged down in a Jehovah/Jesus discussion here "
Aren't you an active Jehovah's witness ??? why would you consider talkin' bout Jehovah as bein' bogged down ?????
If a person ignores other portions of the bible, and builds his belief around a favorite rendering of a particular verse, then what he believes really reflects , not the word of God, but his own ideas , and perhaps those of another imperfect human."_________reasoning book page 416
that sound familiar?????? How about Isaiah 43:10 and ignoring Acts 1:8
sounds to me like the religion you speak for just described themselves
just stating fact from their own words, no joke look it up for yourself