i think it was the doouglas walsh trial in 1952 in scotland that franz was asked to translate a small passage of scripture from greek to english and he refused to do so saying "he would not attempt that'. So for me that is enough proof that something is a miss in the NWT trnaslation
Difficulties understanding passage.
by s-c-3-1-3 57 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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soft+gentle
SC313 - welcome
"By" can mean "by means of" and Jehovahs witnesses render the translation in this way. This is the tidying up reply you will receive from Jehovahs witnesses. However the story is much more untidy than that imo and much less reductionist. For example, taking your point, I agree that Jehovah himself needs to be seen as being part of the equation and I would go further and suggest that we also see him as being part of the created process - as the verse is not clear about leaving Jehovah himself out of the created picture. A way to reconcile this is to view the creation as ongoing - Jehovah and Jesus and we all are both affect and effect of creation (creation in the sense of transformation). the Greek word (ktzo - κτιζω) translated created also contains the idea of transformation, of founding and not just the idea of bringing to life. Indeed I would prefer to say transforming rather than creating (if the verb is seen in its infinitve rather than the aorist form). Here I am giving the whole thing a Nietzschean flavour filtered through other philosophers. So in this sort of scenario we are all bringing to life endlessly (here incorporating the complete range of the word translated as created - transforming, founding, bringing to life). Often this goal is unconscious but it is more rewarding to make it a conscious aim?
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cantleave
The bible is a collection of little books written by different men, with different objectives. Is it any wonder that there are so many inconsistencies and contradiction?
Take it for what it is, a work of fiction.
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erbie
Personally, I see the trinity as a solution to the problem of there being two Gods mentioned in the bible (other than false gods) when it also clearly states that there is only one true God. I do not claim to understand this concept but that in itself does not make it a false teaching as the WT claim. We can not expect to understand the mysteries of God and it is a presumption to insert words into the scriptures as the WT have done in order to make a particular piece of text say what they need it to say in order to balance with whatever else they teach.
Why else would they insert words? To help us understand a difficult verse? Personally, I think that they have done it in order to befuddle a really simple message. A message that is so simple that, if left to our own understanding, we would understand it. And they would'nt want that would they!
The teaching of the trinity was arrived at as a direct result of there being so many texts that clearly identify Jesus as God or a god. Weather it is 'God' (which in many cases it is) or as 'a god' makes no difference at all since we know that the scriptures clearly state that there is only one true God and all others are false gods.
It is remarkable actually how Jehovah's Witnesses are happy to believe in two gods. I believe they don't really think about it.
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Chalam
If one believes the WT teaching i.e. Jehovah created Jesus who created all "[other]" things then this verse is also a problem.
Isaiah 44:24
English Standard Version (ESV)
24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
who formed you from the womb:
“I am the LORD, who made all things,
who alone stretched out the heavens,
who spread out the earth by myselfIf you believe the "LORD" only to be Father then either this passage is at direct odds with verse 16 here.
Colossians 1:15-16
English Standard Version (ESV)
The Preeminence of Christ
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. If you believe that Yahweh ("Jehovah") is God the Father, Son and Spirit then there is no problem. Incidentally, the Holy Spirit is also cited as the Creator! See here for exampleJob 33:4
English Standard Version (ESV)
4 The Spirit of God has made me,
and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.Blessings,
Stephen
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Vanderhoven7
<<Whether it is 'God' (which in many cases it is) or as 'a god' makes no difference at all since we know that the scriptures clearly state that there is only one true God and all others are false gods.>>
True, the Father is identified as Ho Theos ("the God") with the definite article.
Interestingly, so is Jesus Christ:
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God (ho Theos) with us.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God (ho Theos), is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord (ho Kurious) and my God (ho Theos). -
AGuest
God is "with" us, dear ones (may you all have peace!)... by means of Christ. His spirit was put IN Christ, the vessel... just as through that One it is put in US, the "temple" of God, the place where God dwells... BY SPIRIT. (Ephesians 2:19-21). To understand this TRUTH, one must understand... and SEE... the City (New Jersualem) and its "temple". From outside, then the farthest out going in:
I. OUTSIDE OF THE CITY of NEW JERUSALEM -
"Outside" = The "goats" (humans, referred to as "Gog") and those "reserved in Tartarus" (spirits, referred to as "Magog")
II. APPROACHING/ENTERING THE CITY of NEW JERUSALEM -
"12 Gates"/"Wall Foundations" = the 12 Apostles
"Wall [structure]" = 144,000 "from among the sons of Israel"
III. INSIDE THE CITY BUT OUTSIDE THE TEMPLE COMPOUND -
Courtyard of Gentiles = the "sheep" who are separated from the "goats"
IV. INSIDE THE CITY AND INSIDE THE TEMPLE COMPOUND -
Courtyard of Women= those women who, like Rahab, although not Israelites, are given special position in the "temple"
Courtyard of Israel = those of Israel who are not counted among the chosen priests
Courtyard of Priests = those chosen "from among the sons of Israel" (144,000) AND "from EVERY nation, tribe, tongue, and people" (the great crowd/nations)
IV. THE TEMPLE -
The "Stones" - Some of those chosen to be kings and PRIESTS (those "from among the sons of Israel" (144,000) AND "from EVERY nation, tribe, tongue, and people" (the great crowd/nations))
"Pillars" - The Apostles, Prophets, 24 Elders, etc., along with some of those chosen to be kings and priests
The HOLY= JAHESHUA, the Son, who is the High Priest... and DOOR into the MOST Holy (Holy of Holies)
The MOST Holy (Holy of Holies) = JAH, the Father ("God")
As you can see, some entitites have dual+ roles. The "temple" has two fulfillments:
1. While the PEOPLE are the "temple" of God... in that God dwells IN them (that is what a temple is: a place where the Divine dwells);
2. God and Christ (the Lamb) are the TEMPLE in the City of New Jerusalem (which is made up of the PEOPLE who make up the "temple" of God).
So, there is a temple (God and Christ) WITHIN the "temple" (dwelling place of God) that is the City of New Jerusalem (the people).
When people keep making Christ God... they are, in essence, forcing the Holy... INTO the MOST Holy. They are two very separate and distinct compartments IN the temple. One must go THROUGH the Holy... to enter into the Holy of Holies (Most Holy). Before the tearing of the curtain that separated the Holy from the MOST Holy, in the literal tabernacle/temples... ONLY the High Priest could go into the MOST Holy. NO ONE else could enter... without being put to death. Because of this, a cord had to be tied around the waist of the high priest so that if he died while in the Most Holy he could be pulled out (because NO ONE could go in, not even to retrieve his body!).
When the curtain was rent in two (which my Lord gave up his spirit BACK to God)... the "way" was OPENED... so that ANYONE could now enter into the MOST Holy; however, because of how it is situated... BEHIND the Holy... one must still go THROUGH the Holy to get there. In the same exact way, one can now enter without being a high priest; however, one MUST enter... THROUGH the Holy. Christ. "NO ONE comes to the Father... except THROUGH me." "I am the Door."
People don't understand this. They keep thinking they can go around Christ to get to God... or disregard God by going SOLELY to Christ. They don't understand that Christ is the WAY... TO God. THROUGH that One, the HOLY One of Israel... one CAN gain access so as to enter into and before the MOST Holy One of Israel... JAH of Armies.
Joseph was never made completely equal to Pharaoh, nor did he ever wish to be. He was Pharaoh's SERVANT. Because he made himself so, Pharaoh conferred upon him (Joseph) ALL that he possessed... except HIS (Pharaoh's) throne. THAT... he retained for himself. It is the exact same thing with God and Christ: although ALL authority has been GIVEN to Christ... it is all... with the exception of the throne of God itself. Only One maintains authority over Christ: his Father, the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies.
Moses and Solomon were given MODELS to follow in order to construct the tabernacle and temples. Those models were manifested with literal earthly materials... because PEOPLE (as required by the TRUE thing) could not literally be used. One cannot SEE what these were modeled AFTER, however, and what the earthly manifestations were "models" of themselves... without "eyesalve." One can look... and look... but will look in vain.
Because, unless and until one BUYS eyesalve from the One SELLING it... one remains blind. One cannot "see" the kingdom of God with his/her eyes of flesh. Because the FLESH... is of NO use... at ALL.
May those with ears hear and get the sense of these truths. May those without... but who truly wish them... be GIVEN ears so as to hear. And may both, if they truly wish it... be given SIGHT... so as to see... from the One who "GIVES sight... to the 'blind'."
God is not far off from any of us. We must grope for Him, yes. We must grope, however, THROUGH Christ... the one who grants us eyes... to SEE.
Servant to the Household of God, Israel, and all those who go with... and a slave of Christ,
SA
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EntirelyPossible
Shelby, you should consider the passages about not bearing false witness. Consider it deeply with your LORD. When he is ready to prove he is a reliable witness, get back to me.
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s-c-3-1-3
Hi,
Ultimately, the Trinity is difficult to understand, but it is the only way that all of the scripture contradictions can be correct. Because the Watchtower Society cannot understand the concept, it changes the Bible to make it "easier to understand" or to fit with its understanding.
Can I ask honestly who here is a baptised Jehovah Witness who believes in the deity of Christ or the trinity?
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AGuest
Ahh, dear EP (peace to you!), no false witness was borne. That you wish the "change the rules"* is irrelevant. He will respond when he's ready. As he did before.
As always, peace to you, dear one!
A slave of Christ,
SA
*In an effort not to derail someone else's thread with this melarkey... I've taken the matter here: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/220317/1/Continuing-for-dear-EP