This Made Me So Thankful I am No Longer A Christian

by cofty 126 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Sulla

  I think we are speaking of the term mystery in more than one way. The Greek and Latin terms give us the words "sacrament" and "mystery", by which we refer, more or less, to the making of something holy, set apart. John Chrysostom connects the idea that they are called mysteries because what we see is not what we believe. We see a man and a woman having sex, we believe in love. We see a bath, we believe the Church claims a soul as its own. We see a baby's cut foreskin, we believe the child is now part of his nation.

  We see a man tortured to death on a cross, we believe something else. Perhaps.

  Suffering can be seen this way: as a mysterious, sanctifying grace. Which is not to say we want it or that it is something good. On the contrary, suffering is entirely evil. But it does set us apart, it makes us different. Or, we could say that it doesn't make us different from lower animals, in which case the suffering of a man is no different from the suffering of a fish. This is what we mean by the term mystery.

  I was there as my grandfather took his last breaths, in pain, unable to care for himself, barely conscious. And cold, during those last hours. There's no good that comes from it, it doesn't make me less sinful or bring glory to God or any of that nonsense. But it was a mysterious grace, this being with him as he suffered. It was set apart, special, in a horrible way. Fortunately, it is a grace I will never experience again: there was nothing good about it.

  But it was a mystery. What we see is a primate in pain, what we believe is something else. Or not. This is what I'm trying to say to you.
• 

  tec

  Let's get this strtaight: Is the Lord, Jesus, Jehovah or whatever his name is, so busy attending to the minutiae of his self-focused people's lives that he allows untold misery and tragedy to co-exist elsewhere. No wonder he doesn't step in to stop pre-schoolers being abused

  by caregivers - he's too busy securing sports victories or finding parking lots.

  This kind of thinking always confuses me. God, and Christ, can take care of more than one thing at a time. The 'menial' and the 'significant'. Lets just say for argument's sake that God helped someone who asked Him to get a promotion somewhere... that does not mean that this took time away from another person who asked Him to find their lost child or something. Why does one act have to take away from another act?

  But: . a) not everyone asks Him for help . b) not everyone has the faith to ask and know that they will receive... few have that faith, in fact, as Christ said . c) sometimes we are permitted to answer for ourselves (like in Job - do you love God only when times are good, or do you love him even when times -for you- are bad) In fact, some people prefer to try and answer for themselves. . d) some do not want His help and would never ask - or don't believe that he is real TO ask (and He does not force Himself on us; unlike religion... that includes, imo, forcing himself on our children... as we all know how much we love JW grandparents who attempt to indoctrinate our children despite OUR decision not to teach them about the jw religion, yes?) . e) some consider the flesh to be unimportant and so do not ask for help with fleshly matters, but instead ask for strength to endure those physical hardships and remain faithful . f) sometimes suffering does teach us to be better; sometimes it teaches us empathy that we did not have beforehand; sometimes it teaches us not to repeat whatever led to that suffering (or it should teach us that) In this way, it would be good for God to allow it... in the same way that we will sometimes let out children feel the consequences of their actions, because they wouldn't listen and therefore learn, without e x periencing it for themselves. . I know that I went into more than just physical suffering, but the thread seemed to turn toward suffering as a whole, so I think I'm still on topic. . Peace, Tammy
• 

  cofty

  Tammy I don't mean to be offensive but that is a bunch of trite, hackneyed platitudes.

  Come with me to the cancer ward at my regional centre at the Freeman Hospital and let me introduce you to some people who are losing the last round of a long and painful battle.

  Lets see how your explanations sound in the real world ...

  a) God might have cured you but you didn't think to ask - silly you, if you don't ask you don't get, or as they say in these parts "shy bairns get nought".

  b) You are dying of cancer becasue you asked but you didn't have sufficient faith so its your own fault really.

  c) God decided to leave you to your own devices with this one to see how much you love him. Congratulations you did well!

  d) God could have cured you but you didn't think there was any evidence he existed so god thought - fuck you!

  e) God decided giving you fortitude to endure your demise was more beneficial than curing you. God is pleased you have been really strong.

  f) God is letting you suffer this way to teach you a lesson - have you learned it yet?

  This is precisely the kind of lame apologetics that convince me that theism is not harmless nonsense, it is much worse than that.
• 

  steve2

  Tammy, with all due respect I'd give you a shovel, but I think you're doing a pretty masterful job of digging the proverbial hole so well all by yourself.

  Just because it is possible for humans to articulate and expand upon their respective spiritual beliefs - and even coat them in the language of "reason" - doesn't make those beliefs any less weirdly offensive.

  The fact that Christianity is based on primitive blood sacrifice practices in which one violently ended life saves others does not make it any more acceptable or less bizarre. Christianity merely reflects the practices of its origins in a blood sacrificing era and, in the modern-day era, attempts to beef up its appeal by coating itself with the language of sweet reasonable and gratitude.

  At least in that regard, Christianity is virtually on a par with Judaism and Islam with their similarly outmoded but undeniable comfort with the magic of sacrificial blood offerings. If this belief in blood sacrifice were found in any other belief "systems" (e.g., pagan or animistic) we'd immediately note its reveling in blood...oh, that's right, many pagan and animistic beliefs do entail blood sacrifice...

  Please may reason save us from the savagery of the world's "great" religions!
• 

  Twitch

  I was there as my grandfather took his last breaths, in pain, unable to care for himself, barely conscious. And cold, during those last hours. There's no good that comes from it, it doesn't make me less sinful or bring glory to God or any of that nonsense. But it was a mysterious grace, this being with him as he suffered. It was set apart, special, in a horrible way. Fortunately, it is a grace I will never experience again: there was nothing good about it.

  There's nothing graceful or special about death and dying from what i've seen. Ain't no mystery there either, everything that has a beginning has an end and both are cold, hard and painful.
• 

  cofty

  I too was deeply puzzled by the use of the word "grace" in this context.
• 

  Band on the Run

  I've written how I suffered facial neuralgia for years. The pain is agonizing. I hovered near death. Circumstances led to increased faith of a more sophisticated nature b/c I needed it to cope. Suffering beyond words. Some Christian fundie would announce as they so bent over with pain that I was sick so Christ could triumph. Normally, I would turn the other cheek. I screamed back what kind of sick god would make people suffer. Further, if Christ caused my suffering, I spit on his Name. My God is powerful enough to not need suffering.

  I still ponder why not intervene. It makes it very difficult to believe in God. I was not an exception. If anything, I was a norm in terms of pain and anguish world wide. Most of it is preventable.

  Viktor Frankl and Carl Jung. I wonder. Why did Jesus only heal a handful of people? It makes no sense.
• 

  MrFreeze

  At what point does Christianity go from reasonable to utterly insane? Is there a point when any bit of Christianity can be considered sane?
• 

  tec

  Cofty - I believe I mentioned that I had moved on from physical suffering, since the thread seemed to have moved on as well? I was responding to Steve (I think?) when he wondered why God might help some if that meant not helping others. I would never have said any of those things to anyone dying from or having cancer. (well, maybe one thing, if asked) I would say this if someone happened to ask me what I thought, and did say this a page or two back:

  We suffer physically (get sick, old, hurt and die) because that is part of the physical world, and we are a part of that. Happens to us all, without discrimination (unless of course we put ourselves at greater risk for any of those things) But the good/the bad/the young/the old/the strong/the weak/believer/atheist... we all suffer from the conditions that come with the physical nature of life.

  Faith can give strength, hope, and comfort to get through our suffering.

  The 'maybe one thing' I mentioned is this:

  Cancer patients are most often victims of a world that cares more about money and convenience than it does about the health of its inhabitants. We (the world) knows that some things raise the risk of getting cancer. But we (the world) do them anyway... and force others to be e x posed to those things as well. (big power transformers, pollutants in the water, smoking, radiation eposure, etc) Companies lie and downplay the effect to the innocent people who don't know better... or can't afford to make any better choices. I mean, they downplayed the carcinogens in cigarettes. Then people were addicted. The image was 'cool', and people were manipulated to their own (and others) detriment. That is man not loving one another... or caring for others at all, much less his children, and their children, and their children, etc.

  That's kind of what I meant by keeping God out. Not letting him help. Because he can't help and guide us if we don't listen to him.

  Anyway, I think we're getting better... or maybe the people who care are just getting more of a voice. Many of our children want to get rid of the ways that cause harm, and focus on health for us and for the planet - probably because they're the ones left with the results of ours and previous generations. But for now I think those who care more about the $$ and power still outnumber and outpower those who care about the people and the planet.

  Peace,

  Tammy
• 

  tec

  Why did Jesus only heal a handful of people?

  Because only a handful of people had the faith to be healed. I know people will jump on that, but that's what He also said. "Your faith has healed you". I don't know if I know anyone with that kind of faith. The faith that knows and doesn't doubt. The faith that asks and knows that it is done, rather than asking and hoping it will be done.

  I get a little scared myself thinking about that sort of thing. Not that it isn't true and won't happen. But that it is true and will happen.

  Peace,

  Tammy