Having Faith in the Bible

by william draper 75 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • _Morpheus
    _Morpheus

    William, you are twisting 7 ways to sunday on that interpretation. Lets really quote it and see what it says:

    “If, however, the man happened to meet the engaged girl in the field and the man overpowered her and lay down with her, the man who lay down with her is to die by himself, 26 and you must do nothing to the girl. The girl has not committed a sin deserving of death. This case is the same as when a man attacks his fellow man and murders him. 27 For he happened to meet her in the field, and the engaged girl screamed, but there was no one to rescue her. 28 “If a man happens to meet a virgin girl who is not engaged and he seizes her and lies down with her and they are discovered, 29 the man who lay down with her must give the girl’s father 50 silver shekels, and she will become his wife. Because he humiliated her, he will not be allowed to divorce her as long as he lives.

    the emphisis was on whether or not she was engaged, that is belonging to another man already. Nowhere at all do i see or read anything regarding maybe she was horney and wanted him and it was consentual.... It was presented as rape. He laid down with her but it wasnt all bad because she didnt belong to anyone anyway. He just had to marry her because no one else would now anyway.

  • Chris Hannover
    Chris Hannover
    william draper: women and male children were taken captive and later killed under the order of Moses , in the previous chapter it speaks of these people as having acted wickedly against the Israelites

    Ok, so your personal morality says killing children is ethical under certain conditions. For example, if their parents don't agree with you.

    I consider that a morally vulgar position. My personal morality says killing children is wrong under all circumstances.

    the worship of Baal involved child sacrifice I believe

    So your religion killing children is justified as long as their religion killed children first.

    Wouldn't a good, loving god simply not kill the children? Wouldn't a decent person not kill the children?

  • steve2
    steve2

    William I would be concerned if anything I have said in this thread could be construed as insulting you. However, if I have done so, I apologize.

    It was good to see you acknowledge an important point of agreement with me: The Bible needs to be scrutinized like all writings claiming to be the word of God.

    That is such a promising point of agreement!

    Unfortunately, you immediately slip right past the act of scrutinizing what the Bible says by automatically attempting to force your understanding of what you think the word "rape" means onto an ancient set of writings.

    Scrutiny reveals there are some barbaric teachings in the Bible - all uttered as if from the true God. This though is hardly surprising - given that the quest for human rights has only gained momentum in the world in very, very recent times.

    It would be a shame if the quest for human rights was trivialized or portrayed as a sign of civilization's decline. I hope you and I can at least agree on that.

  • william draper
    william draper

    http://christianthinktank.com/midian.html

    Please see the link above .

    It is quite erroneous to say that I support the killing of children , the fact maybe that in those times there was no way to take care of children from which warfare would have left with no parents .

    If you stand before GOD and point your finger at him , well that is between you and God . I wouldn't want to put myself in such a position , the fact is we know that God allows bad things to happen , if you think you are big enough , or intelligent enough to put God before a tribunal .. . I really pity you , obviously there are many on here that seem quite ready to do that very thing , You don't understand , neither do I , but I am not going to question the hand of God , and I hope you will think about this again yourself .

  • freemindfade
    freemindfade

    Moses did that, stood an pointed his finger at god, when they were worshipping the calf god said he wanted to kill them all and make a nation out of Moses, good ol' moses talked him out of it. I god wants to kill me for questioning how his book has represented him, I guess I am dead, but I don't want to live forever looking over my shoulder to see if I have somehow angered YHWH.

    I hope nothing I have said has been an insult to you either William, but after 35 years of forcing my rationality down to swallow bible stories, I am a little raw when it comes to accepting this man made book.

  • cappytan
    cappytan
    ...the fact is we know that [a] God [of love] allows bad things to happen....

    Do you not realize how irrational that sounds?

  • freemindfade
  • Hold Me-Thrill Me
    Hold Me-Thrill Me

    Folks, where did we get the idea that God should be pushing mankind forward even before their time, before they're ready? In the Hebrew Scriptures God does not bring the Jews into a future time of social development. He guides and works within their time frame.

    Jesus said Moses gave in to the hardheartedness of men when he granted divorce. How much harder it would have been if Moses had set out a list of commands that matched the civil rights and social order we have today? It would have been impossible for him to get the Jewish men of his day to follow him, impossible. God provided a framework that fit their level of social maturity. He did not force them beyond what they were able to accept for their time.

  • Chris Hannover
    Chris Hannover
    If you stand before GOD and point your finger at him , well that is between you and God .

    I will stand before all men and all gods and say killing children is wrong.

    I wouldn't want to put myself in such a position ,

    Since you refuse to acknowledge that killing children is wrong in all circumstance, we will never agree.

    Because I value humanity and have natural empathy, I will never accept or respect your morally empty rantings.

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    So William Draper your defending the ancient Hebrew God YHWH as not being violent toward mankind , if that is the case then why did this god kill at one time all the human inhabitants except for one family who were not really so righteous after all, during the great flood ?

    Here is some other moral standards conducted by the ancient Hebrews ......

    Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests

    Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

    Kill Witches

    You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

    Kill Homosexuals
    "If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

    Kill Fortunetellers

    A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

    Death for Hitting Dad

    Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

    Death for Cursing Parents

    1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

    2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

    Death for Adultery

    If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

    Death for Fornication

    A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

    Death to Followers of Other Religions

    Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

    Kill Nonbelievers

    They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

    Kill False Prophets

    If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

    Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

    Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

    Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night

    But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

    Kill Followers of Other Religions.

    1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

    2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

    Death for Blasphemy

    One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)

    Kill False Prophets

    1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)

    2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)

    Infidels and Gays Should Die

    So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)

    Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle

    For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)

    Kill People for Working on the Sabbath

    The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)

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