Did Jesus sacrifice really mean anything?

by highdose 83 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  N.drew

  HUMF
• 

  breakfast of champions

  This is another one that has always bothered me, too. It is also, perhaps not a sore point, but at least an area of doubt with my wife, especially since I got sick.

  I suffered IMMEASURABY, FOR YEARS, FOR NO PURPOSE AT ALL, while my wife looked on, helpless to bring relief.

  On the other hand, Jesus VOLUNTEERED to DIE FOR A PURPOSE, SUFFERED FOR A SHORT WHILE full knowing it would all be over shortly (according to the story)

  I know this bothers my wife, and we had a pretty emotional talk about it after a WT where they went on and on about how great Jesus sacrifice was. I broke down, she was upset, and in the end, she knows that as much suffering as Jesus was supposed to have endured, it really wasnt a whole lot compared to what both of us went through in my illness - as well as many others who have suffered FOR DECADES without relief. Like I've heard some atheists say , Jesus had a bad weekend.
• 

  tec

  Okay, I had a response all typed out before the site messed up (compliments of my computer, of course... sorry bout that y'all ). So I will try to recapture the spirit of my original response.

  First, I think it is important to note that Christ was innocent of any wrongdoing. He did not deserve to suffer or die as He did. He was an innocent man condemned to torture and death. Even worse, what He did was try to help us and teach us the Truth. For that, he received pain and death on the cross.

  Second, he knew that he would rise after three days because of his faith in his Father. He trusted His father: his promise and his nature. God could have said, 'nah, not going to help you out there, son'. Faith IS knowing. Christ had that. But if he had not been able to doubt at all, then why have that moment of doubt on the cross?

  Third, He did nothing for a reward. He followed the will of His Father out of love for his Father, and faith IN His Father. That He received a reward does not invalidate what he did, since he did it out of love. And he did not have to do it. He could have said no, screw these people. He could have foregone the whole thing, and left us to ourselves and our own darkness. He did not want to be tortured, mocked, wrongly accused, beaten, and e x ecuted... and so prayed that the cup might being taken from him... but His father's will be done over his own.

  Fourth, his sacrifice taught us a lot. He taught us not to fear death; that it need not have any hold on us. He taught us to forgive, even those who hurt and kill us. He taught us to ask for mercy for our enemies. (those who set themselves up to be our enemies) He taught us to live with honesty, and love. He taught us to lay our lives down for one another. He always led by e x ample.

  And fifth, everything He did was for my benefit. For yours. For anyone who looks to Him. To teach, to atone, to grant us courage and strength; take your pick. There are not a lot of people who would do what Christ did, for friend and brother... and enemy. If he were standing before you, and you saw and felt all that he suffered, and all that he did... would you really make light of it?

  Peace,

  Tammy (who thinks she left stuff out, but it'll come to her later)
• 

  tec

  I want to know by what right he took away the responsibility for my actions. I am more than capable of answering for the excellent life I have lived and I have no need of a sacrificial scapegoat to be nailed and whipped on my behalf. I want none of that sordid sickness.

  Your choice, Q. Always your choice.

  Peace,

  Tammy
• 

  tec

  I'm sorry! I can not find the post. Maybe it was Q who said the worst bit of logic he'd ever seen.

  It was Cofty, lol. And thank you, Nancy. No worries though.

  Peace,

  tammy
• 

  Sayswho

  • FIRST OF ALL--- Jesus at the time of his death (and before) KNEW ALL THINGS... His memory was fully restored, he knew who he was, where he came from, EVERYTHING about his life in heaven as Gods Son-Co-creator, He was a Super Being in the form of man. When he was baptized Gods spirit came upon him and said "This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved."

  • So lets not compare Him, with humans who know nothing but were told, have no super powers, were never angles or any other life form. And no memories of that time that we could reflect on to know what to expect if we performed up to expectations...

  • Don't get me wrong I'm not diminishing just putting it in perspective.

  IMHO

  Sw
• 

  Ding

  It's my understanding that Jesus' suffering wasn't just the physical or even the death but also the spiritual, bearing the Father's punishment for the sins of the entire world.

  Qcmbr, regarding your statement that you want to be responsible for your own actions and have God judge you on your own merits rather than having any part in Jesus' sacrificial suffering and death, you have that right. No one is forced to believe in Jesus or have his sacrifice applied to them.
• 

  man oh man

  In my opinion your missing the point. Just like the wts in trying to put a value on the ransom. (life for a life). It is not about the value but the outcome. Because of Jesus sacrifice we can now be reconciled to God. This is the essence of the Gospel. This is what it is all about. Everything from genesis to revelation. The beauty of it is that a person can accept it or reject it. Eventually all will have that opportunity.

  (Colossians 1:18-20) . . .He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things; 19 because [God] saw good for all fullness to dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile again to himself all [other] things by making peace through the blood [he shed] on the torture stake, no matter whether they are the things upon the earth or the things in the heavens.
• 

  SweetBabyCheezits

  I like how Thomas Paine put it in The Age of Reason:

  "If I owe a person money, and cannot pay him, and he threatens to put me in prison, another person can take the debt upon himself, and pay it for me. But if I have committed a crime, every circumstance of the case is changed. Moral justice cannot take the innocent for the guilty even if the innocent would offer itself. To suppose justice to do this, is to destroy the principle of its existence, which is the thing itself. It is then no longer justice. It is indiscriminate revenge.

  This single reflection will show that the doctrine of redemption is founded on a mere pecuniary idea corresponding to that of a debt which another person might pay; and as this pecuniary idea corresponds again with the system of second redemptions, obtained through the means of money given to the church for pardons, the probability is that the same persons fabricated both the one and the other of those theories; and that, in truth, there is no such thing as redemption; that it is fabulous; and that man stands in the same relative condition with his Maker he ever did stand, since man existed; and that it is his greatest consolation to think so."
• 

  Knowsnothing

  Man oh man, why is there a reconciliation needed? What can a human possibly do to an infinite God to deserve his wrath?