Did Jesus sacrifice really mean anything? (page 6)

moshe

Well, about as much as, "change you can believe in".

tec

Are you kidding me? How many here have prayed to even have a slight confirmation that God indeed listens? I sure did. Nothing. Nada. I slowly came to realize I was speaking to myself.

I cannot speak for you; only for me. I have been given strength and patience when I asked for it in faith. I have been given answers and understanding when I ask for those in faith. Not necessarily on my timeline, though. It was never on my timeline. I follow Christ because I love Him, and God because Christ showed me who God was, and so I love Him as well.

Christ said that if we love Him, we will obey his teachings... then his Father will love us, and they will come and make their home with us. I trust that; and for me, I know that it is a trusted promise. We are also told to keep asking; keep knocking and the door will be open. But in the meantime... follow Christ.

He does not force himself upon us, like he doesn't force himself upon Muslims and Hindus.

Agreed.

And, that 'hearing in spirit' makes me cautious. That's something I simply have to take your word to believe it. Which isn't too reassuring, considering you could define that any way you wish to define it.

Don't take my word for it. Ask for yourself. Ask for faith (if you want it), then keep asking, keep knocking. If you want it. It is not an easy road. Christ did not promise that it would be so. He promised that it would be hard. This world does not make it easy to believe in Him, or to follow Him. And a lot of other voices drown his out. (such as the WTS, or the WBBaptists, or the hellfire preachers, or all those who say they have the truth and we must go to them and do as they say)

But He is always there to sustain us. Blessing do come... I think mostly in spiritual ways (peace, understanding, faith, patience, strength, freedom and of course love).

Peace to you,

Tammy

cofty

Cofty, I hardly recognized you with your new avatar

haha thought it was time for a change. That's me with my coaching face on.

tec

I'm confused about your movie reference. Girl A - the one who got them into trouble - is she supposed to be analagous to Jesus or A&E? In either case, Girl A was still guilty in some way, right? The sentence was applied to one of two people found guilty of breaking the law, regardless of what happened to Girl B.

For a parallel to Jesus sacrifice, we need to bring in a third party who had NO involvement in the crime whatsoever. Suppose Girl A's mother asked to serve her daughter's sentence in her stead - how would the judge have responded to that, considering the mother was not involved in the crime?

I wasn't trying to compare them at all.

Just showing that the judge had said that even if the girl (a) was innocent, ang girl (b) was guilty... that she (a) deserved to have her request granted (take the guilt onto herself) because of the courage in her sacrifice, and love for girl (b).

I never claimed Thomas Paine's morality was the de facto standard but I will take it over a book that condones - and even prescribes - genocide, mysogyny, rape, murder, homophobia, slavery, etc... any day of the week.

Well, I wasn't comparing it to any of that. Only to the above moral choice laid out by that judge... that there are different codes of justice and morality; all depending on how you look at a situation and who deserves what they want more.

In the above case, if girl a was innocent and wanted to sacrifice herself for girl b (guilty), then becasue of her courage and her love, she deserved to have her request honored.

In that case, if Christ wanted us to be forgiven, then on the basis of His sacrifice and His love, He deserves to have his request honored.

It all depends on whether or not you are looking at what reward the innocent deserves... or... what punishment the guilty deserves. Takes a minute to wrap your head around.

It was a good movie. It stuck with me for the past fifteen years... especially that moment and verdict from the judge. Brokedown Palace.

Peace,

Tammy

Terry

What is wrong with this picture? An All-Powerful SUPER Being wants something from weak, sinful, imperfect lower creatures.......?

And cannot make it happen! Must coax. Must plead. Must cajole. Must sacrifice. And even then, is marginally successful.....!

Something is wrong with this PREMISE!

Where is the Justice in rewarding bad sinners and killing the blameless innocent?

Something is wrong with this Premise!

Life comes from Death? Really? In what primitive mind?

Wouldn't you expect more from a perfect being with only goodness and love inside their awesome Soverignty?

Why is Almighty God such an under-achiever??

cofty

Where is the Justice in rewarding bad sinners and killing the blameless innocent?

Good point Terry.

A system that allows for a child rapist and murderer to repent as he is led to the electric chair and wake up moments later to an eternity of bliss but sends a unsaved child to an eternity of agony has nothing at all to do with moral responsibility.

Sulla

Hate to get in the way of all the fun. But.

There have been lots of serious looks at what sacrifice is attempting to accomplish. And it is a serious question, since the act of sacrifice, human and otherwise, seems to be a pretty universal human trait. Which is to say, if it is something we all do, there has to be some real reason for it, yeah?

If we could raise the conversation beyond a response to the most ignorant, fundamentlist possible, we would ask: what is it about us that makes us need sacrifice? What problem does it solve? How does it work?

I don't think most of the posts here are actually helping in that regard.

designs

Of course not Sulla, late Bronze Age religions have seen their day pass.

Sulla

I would not be quite so sanguine, designs. I doubt very much that the human nature which has always required sacrifice, usually human sacrifice, has changed so much recently. In fact, events like the Cultural Revolution suggest very much the opposite.

designs

But for the Western mind and culture now some 300 years into the Age Of Enlightenment we, in growing numbers, cannot go back to admiring or even relating to a Human Sacrifice God. Fellow Catholics and Fundamentalists dig this kind of thing, relish it, weep over its emotion but for a ever growing xJW community religion is becoming an antiquity best viewed in a museum or beating in the political arena.

Did Jesus sacrifice really mean anything?

Share this