There are two videos recently that caught my attention on youtube that I'd like to discuss. Both are posted below. My next post under this topic will deal with the specifics, but please watch first so as not to be tainted by my commentary. :-) (I have no idea how to embed the videos apparently, if anybody would like to help I'd appreciate it).
Why I Hate Religion, But Love Jesus
by d0rkyd00d 65 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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SixofNine
like
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d0rkyd00d
Well apparently I figured it out.
I watched both of these videos in one sitting. First off, full disclosure: I'm an atheist agnostic- I don' tknow if there's a God, but I don't believe that there is, at least in terms of most conventional definitions of the word. However, I was extremely disgusted and insulted by the response to the initial video, which I felt was heartfelt and beautiful.
I've recently discovered that arguments over the factuality of the Bible bore me to tears. It's like endless conversations having to deal with whether the works of Shakespeare ever actually happened. Atheists (including myself) have spent so much time and energy trying to disprove the inspired origin of the Bible, we’ve completely missed and neglected what I find to be a fascinatingly complex story of human triumph, hope, aspiration, and an enormous leap forward in our understanding of morality.
On the atheist’s response, I commented that it was like listening to a young earth creationist argue against why evolution is true. I already knew that atheism was no safeguard against ignorance, but it’s still shocking and embarrassing to see the lack of empathy and understanding, the frothing arrogance, and the wild-eyed intolerance, pouring out of the AmazingAtheist. Ironically, it’d do him some good to read his Bible.
I am an atheist of the Dawkins/Hitchens/Dennett generation, and I rabidly devoured all of their books on the subject. I went through my militant atheist phase. I got it, I was proud of it, but now, I’m over it. It’s interesting that one of the natural reactions to discovering the belief that a Christian God doesn’t exist is that suddenly, you feel qualified to talk about Christianity and the Bible. It turns out, nothing is further from the truth. It immediately discourages a deeper understanding of the complex themes of the Bible, the implications of the New Testament and the impact on religion of the character, real or fictional, Jesus Christ. Recently, I mourned the loss of a great champion of reason and eloquence, Christopher Hitchens. As I read through the various eulogies, I was fascinated by several of those written by religious figures as they detailed their close friendships with Hitchens. One had talked about an eleven hour roadtrip in which Hitchens demanded to talk about the book of John for the entire duration. I was floored. For many years, I’ve heard the expression “don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater,” never fully understanding its meaning. Now, sadly, I realize that the new generation of atheism has instilled a deep disdain for anything originating from the Bible, without any appreciation of the detailed development of mankind’s development of the idea of God and morality.
I have been in a relationship with a Jehovahs Witness for over a year now (talk about the odd couple). It’s strange, yet warmly familiar, since I was raised as a Jehovahs Witness until I was about fifteen. At first, I was very opposed to spending any time or mental energy on re-exploring the Bible, but I’m so thankful now that I did. It has shown me just how little I knew about the Bible, but even more alarmingly, how little I’m sure most atheists know about the Bible. And I get it: why spend time discussing or researching something that one considers fictional? Why waste the energy? Well, it turns out that it’s to avoid looking like a complete doofus when trying to discuss the Bible and Christianity. I really wish there was a new trend in atheism, where people actually spent the time and effort thoroughly understanding scripture so they can intelligently engage in Biblical discussions with Christians. At the very least, I propose that atheists should acknowledge that if they don’t have a thorough understanding and knowledge of the Bible’s storyline, themes, and meanings, then they simply aren’t qualified to discuss it further than admitting their disbelief in its inspired origin. However, with the arrogance and false sense of triumph that accompanies the realization of a belief in a world without God, I fear I may be asking too much. -
tec
Marking to watch the second video, I have already seen the first...
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bohm
The amazing atheist is an absolute asshole. He is known for saying extremely stupid things like calling for women he do not like to be raped.
He is a clown, i consider glenn beck to be a more likeable character with a more informed view on the world, and that is saying a lot.
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tec
Okay, so I read what Bohm wrote first, so I was kind of prepared for what was coming, lol.
I assume he (the guy in the bottom video, not Bohm) knows no one who has Christ, but not religion... so he just cannot grasp it. You know how some people say...'its not even wrong'...? Yeah, that.
Peace,
Tammy
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cofty
In the first video the christian is just repeating the constant refrain of the modern church. Its an attempt to draw a distinction when there is none.
Despite his vaccuous protest the man is deeply religious by any sensible definition. He studies a holy book, gathers with others for collective prayer, preaching and worship. Its a religion - he needs to get over it.
What he is trying to say is that he believes deeply in the meaning behind his religious practices. For him the gospel is profoundly important and influences his thoughts and actions. He tries to distance himself from others who are less devout than he is and who perform religious rituals without the same depth of faith in their significance.
Instead of admitting this as a difference in degree of belief he pretends it is far more than that by completely rejecting the word religion in favour of "a personal relationship with Jesus".
It is self-indulgent, vainglorious posturing.
Tammy rejects the views of the atheist in the second video as "not even wrong" but to be honest its difficult to find fault with what he actually says. He is abrasvie and lacks subtleness but I challenge Tammy or anybody else to tell us what he gets wrong.
I accept your wider point D0rkyd00d that many atheists have only a vague idea about christian doctrine. I wasted 9 years of my life as an evangelical after leaving the borg and during that time I immersed myself in theology. It helps me to discuss things with believers - often I find I know more about christian doctrine than christians - but I don't think it is any reason to dismiss other atheists who haven't studied the finer points of the dark arts.
I think PZ Myers' response to this sort of criticism of Dawkins is excellent - "The Courtier's Reply"
By the way you won't be helped to understand the subtleties of christianity by studying anything that comes out of Brooklyn. Get a hold of one or two systematic theologies and bore yourself to tears for a few months. Its arguably worthwhile if it interests you.
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Diest
I feel the love of Christ when I read Matthew 15:4. I wish everyone would live with those words in mind.
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cofty
For God said, Honor your father and mother and Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death - Matt 15:4
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N.drew
I think I am as happy as a pig in shit that I don't have sound.
Cofty in the borg then nine years as an evangelical! Ah, I understand.