Seems if he really was the messiah he got it supremely wrong in terms of helping Israel - all things considered he chose them a carp promised land that is little more than an indefensible desert surrounded by ideological and socially pissed neighbours about to aquire nuclear weaponry. The Jesus messiah ended up avoiding helping his people during Nazi Germany and various equally horrendous pogroms etc. Maybe the JWs are right and the messiah is shunning his people out of love. Sigh. No wonder they weren't impressed when he turned up, did nothing for them (even allowing the brutal Romans to keep killing them and bleeding them financially dry ) and ended up being stolen by the gentiles of western europe. Jesus should have saved everyone the bother and just done his time in Britain or Gaul.
Why I Hate Religion, But Love Jesus
by d0rkyd00d 65 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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designs
Q- Yes, ask any observant Jew and in their daily prayers (Barauch Atah) they pray for the Messiah to come.
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tec
Tec is of course lying when she claims that someone can know Christ through the spirit (maybe not intentionally but logically) since no one devoid of Christian propganda ever spontaneously gains Christ knowledge from invisible beings (we'd expect numerous christian faiths derived solely in isolation to each other and all gleefully preaching the exact same gospel when they met when of course even the christians who have the same 'spirit' and the same book are just making it up and deciding - as tec does - which version of a Christ they/their culture prefer.)
What is a logical lie?
You are of course entitled to state what you think I am doing. But even the words in the bible that you think I'm going against state that people will worship in spirit and in truth. What in the world did you once think that meant? When the spirit spoke to Paul, what did you think that meant? Was that just a one time occurance? When the spirit told one of the disciples to go to the eunuch, what did you think that meant? When you read 'your daughters will prophecy and have visions' (however that verse goes), what did you think that meant? What did you think it meant when Christ said: "But the Counsellor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you"? Or when He told his disciples that He had much more to teach them, but that they could not bear it, but the Holy Spirit would teach them?
It is fine for you to say that you don't believe in any of that now, as an atheist. But what about when you were a believer? Did you listen for Christ to speak to you, the Holy Spirit... or did you listen to man and religion?
As for organization, people don't have to be organized to follow Christ. Just as they don't have to be organized to follow love, or mercy, or the golden rule. You just do it. You don't need a group of people telling you how to do it, and what to do about it, and so on and so forth.
No one should ever take my word for anything. I do not speak for God. If you want to know the truth, then go to the source yourself. I share what I understand, sometimes what I am given (which is mostly for me), but I personally never believed anything on its own merit if it came from someone else... I tested everything, and asked for myself.
Peace,
Tammy
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cofty
Just as they don't have to be organized to follow love, or mercy, or the golden rule
If you have reduced christianity to these simple precepts it is devoid on content. Nobody needs Jesus for this.
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designs
Dalai Lama 'my philosophy is kindness'.
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wallsofjericho
we’ve completely missed and neglected what I find to be a fascinatingly complex story of human triumph, hope, aspiration, and an enormous leap forward in our understanding of morality.
great post, great comment.
I can amazingly relate to this post. I am an atheist agnostic and I am more fascinated with religion and judeo-christian tradition than I ever was when I actually believed in the god of the bible.
why is that? I mean, I don't just look at the life of Jesus, I actually delve into the letters of Paul and how he took Jesus example and effectively created the religion of christianity.
I think of the counsel of Nicea, and how this deliberation of christian doctrine and subsequent destruction of countless gnostic writings impacted the course of human history. Has religion accomplished good? I think this is certainly debateable but considering human history perhaps religion was a key element of our rising to civilization. Perhaps it was this fear of god that kept us following rules of society and has helped bring us to a point in human existance that we are enlightened enough to cope with our own existence without the intervention of a god. Perhaps this enlightenment 2000 years ago would have led us into chaos?
And what of Christians fascination with Christ? with church? with heaven? with hell? with eternity?
I think all of these elements viewed from the perspective of both theists and atheists can help us more fully absorb the fascinating depth of the human experience.
great post. I will check out the videos at home later.
Thanks,
woj
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tec
Some do need Him, Cofty. More than that, some want and seek Him, and the peace and truth and life that is in Him. Besides, religion could certainly use a little more of Him in order to get those simple precepts down. But that kind of brings us back full circle to the title of that poem. Some people act in love and mercy naturally, because the law is written on their hearts. But many do not. Christ also said that He came for sinners, for the sick... since it is the sick who need (and want) a doctor; not the healthy.
But in any case, it was merely an illustration showing that you can have many individuals following Christ (or love, or a rule, etc) without an organization telling them what to do, and keeping them in line. It doesn't mean that they are blowing in the wind, to and fro.
In fact, Q, I would say that following the bible and what men interpret, rather than listening in spirit and testing what they might hear against love and the golden rule, has a lot of responsibility for all that blowing about in the wind. How else do you get thousands of different denominations, many of them claiming theirs is the correct interpretation of the bible?
Peace,
Tammy
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Qcmbr
The problem tec is in your renunciation of 'religion' as if you somehow aren't in a religion. A religion of one is still a religion. If you simply claim that each morning you wander round and suddenly realise that you are getting a Mork calling Orson communication from the spirit and that you need to run off and do its bidding but other than that you don't have any sacraments, you have no laws and you have no structured worship then you still have a religion. The core of religion is a set of beliefs representing a worldview that normally also dictates a set of behaviours. That you don't have a registered charity , a wafer between your lips and a rosary around your wrist and a prayer cushion to bow east to mecca is really rather to miss the entire point. The moment you pretend to receive messages from an invisible being and act upon those messages you've got a religion. Many people are content to allow the direct communication part to be handled by priests and don't claim such grandiose godly condescension as one on one chats but just because they see the bible one way and you another where you have a non-passive invisible friend whom actually sends you personal guidance doesn't mean you aren't religious. You can't escape your history.
tec - the human mind can fool itself. Raelians, Mormons, Pentecostals , Bhuddists and so on all receive some kind of mystical intuitive guidance (that oddly enough never imparts real knowledge like a chemical formulae but just makes you feel certain or kind or peaceful or in need of a bomb belt etc) ; the fruit loops who blow themselves up to get to Allah claim divine influences. You are not special. Your psyche is treading the well worn and well studied road of delusional self deception and as lovely as it is there is no more truth in it than there is memory in homeopathic water treatments.
That is why it is frustrating when you try to reframe your belief as having intrinsic worth and value (you feel happy to speak for and on behalf of god telling us all what the spirit has inspired you to say or how god interacts in your life) while tryng to claim you are a special irreligious mystic to whom nothing will stick because you've explained it all by building a mental church and an organisation to encapsulate all the factual inaccuracy of your christian faith - you call your new church 'religion'. When challenged on a bible fact you don't even bother anymore you simply default to the bible is full of errors except where it says very insubstantial fluffy stuff to which you cling like a leper to a lost finger. Your belief in christ is totally bible based but you've convinced yourself that its spirit based because the bible requires explanation while the magical spirit can hide between your ear lobes.
I don't doubt you believe. I have been there and I have felt the 'spirit' and it is 'good'. I have defended that feeling and the influence it had in my life. I have been offended that people could doubt my sincerity; could ask me for proof they know I was incapable of giving (how can you show a thought or a prayer?) I absolutely knew Jesus was the Christ and that I was one of his servants. What I didn't realise is that it was all arrogant foolishness. I was no more receiving spirit messages (that by the way told me that the book of mormon was true) than you are which is telling you that Christ is your best bud and will guide your life. My experiences were as lucid as yours, my dreams as real as yours. The arrogance that is faith is to be conned into the thinking that you have spiritual absolute truth and that your internal dialogues are really between multiple beings. This thinking is in every religion and for ever tec there is a Tibetan kid having flashbacks to some previous incarnation, some Scientologist discovering encoded engrams, and a Mormon getting baptised in a temple and 'seeing' the person they are getting baptised on behalf of. The brain is the most artful weaver of illusion there is.
What I'm trying to say is - once you let go of the invisible you realise there was never anything there in the first place then suddenly something powerful becomes possible. All those times when you felt you couldn't get through a trial without divine support you realise you actually did it all by yourself, you realise you aren't a weak and helpless wandering soul needing a home but that in fact you are a magnificent human who is capable of wonder all on her own without recourse to the magical. You no longer need to await answers to prayers, you no longer linger kneeling by the bed begging for solace. Everything you need is already within you and around you in the form of friends and family and nature. The world and you in it are bigger than anything the minds of our ancient forefathers could ever write down and imagine so free yourself from a worldview that went out of date thousands of years ago.
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cofty
...and further to Qcmbr's excellent post you also realise that you are not a sinner and you don't need god's forgiveness for anything. We are human, torn between the urgings of our selfish genes and the "better angels of our nature", free to choose without fear of judgment.
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tec
The problem tec is in your renunciation of 'religion' as if you somehow aren't in a religion. A religion of one is still a religion. If you simply claim that each morning you wander round and suddenly realise that you are getting a Mork calling Orson communication from the spirit and that you need to run off and do its bidding but other than that you don't have any sacraments, you have no laws and you have no structured worship then you still have a religion. The core of religion is a set of beliefs representing a worldview that normally also dictates a set of behaviours. That you don't have a registered charity , a wafer between your lips and a rosary around your wrist and a prayer cushion to bow east to mecca is really rather to miss the entire point. The moment you pretend to receive messages from an invisible being and act upon those messages you've got a religion. Many people are content to allow the direct communication part to be handled by priests and don't claim such grandiose godly condescension as one on one chats but just because they see the bible one way and you another where you have a non-passive invisible friend whom actually sends you personal guidance doesn't mean you aren't religious. You can't escape your history.
I will refer you to the first page, regarding my post in response to Cofty, to which I stated that there are different dictionary definitions of religious and religion. That I accept one of those as pertaining to myself (faith or belief in a deity), but prefer to say I have 'faith' as 'religion or religious' can have different connotations that do not describe me.
No different than an atheist having different levels of atheism. Or using terms that better define what you are, when there are so many other definitions that do not define what you are.
But this thread was not about the differences in religion and the religious (however you define them). It was about the differences between religion and Christ. To which there is a difference.
tec - the human mind can fool itself. Raelians, Mormons, Pentecostals , Bhuddists and so on all receive some kind of mystical intuitive guidance (that oddly enough never imparts real knowledge like a chemical formulae but just makes you feel certain or kind or peaceful or in need of a bomb belt etc) ; the fruit loops who blow themselves up to get to Allah claim divine influences. You are not special. Your psyche is treading the well worn and well studied road of delusional self deception and as lovely as it is there is no more truth in it than there is memory in homeopathic water treatments.
I know that I am not special. I know the human mind can fool itself, and some people can lie to one another and to themselves. But I can only comment as to myself. I can admit that I do not have the answer for the seemingly shared eperience among different faiths. I think all (or some, or most, no need for a dogmatic size fits all answer) are experiencing the spiritual in some form or another. But I don't know.
That is why it is frustrating when you try to reframe your belief as having intrinsic worth and value (you feel happy to speak for and on behalf of god telling us all what the spirit has inspired you to say or how god interacts in your life) while tryng to claim you are a special irreligious mystic to whom nothing will stick because you've explained it all by building a mental church and an organisation to encapsulate all the factual inaccuracy of your christian faith - you call your new church 'religion'.
I do not claim any such thing. And I have no idea what you meant by that last part.
When challenged on a bible fact you don't even bother anymore you simply default to the bible is full of errors except where it says very insubstantial fluffy stuff to which you cling like a leper to a lost finger
Actually, I say what I have always said. Christ first. Christ is the Truth. Everything else second, or perhaps not at all.
Your belief in christ is totally bible based but you've convinced yourself that its spirit based because the bible requires explanation while the magical spirit can hide between your ear lobes.
Everything requires explanation and/or testing. Spirit or bible. So I don't get to hide behind anything. Nor do I ever remember doing so.I don't doubt you believe. I have been there and I have felt the 'spirit' and it is 'good'. I have defended that feeling and the influence it had in my life. I have been offended that people could doubt my sincerity; could ask me for proof they know I was incapable of giving (how can you show a thought or a prayer?) I absolutely knew Jesus was the Christ and that I was one of his servants.
I know. I've read your descriptions of those times. I thought at the time that I think I gave you more credit than you do. But I can't speak for you. I do know that we have never been in the same place in our beliefs, though I am not sure what that might matter. You cannot see Christ past the bible. You cannot see God past the bible, and the fact that you cannot understand how I can say Christ first, and all else second, tells me that you could not have ever been in a place of faith in Christ... first and foremost. You could not move past the bible that told you about him... to HIM, himself. I could be wrong. But your words seem to state that.The world and you in it are bigger than anything the minds of our ancient forefathers could ever write down
Now on this, you and I can agree. Just as I know that God is bigger than mere writings about him can ever portray him to be.
Peace,
Tammy