I didn't watch much of either video because I recognized the guy in the first one about two seconds into it. He's associated with a megachurch in the Seattle area that is (in my opinion) not far removed from being JW's.
Why I Hate Religion, But Love Jesus
by d0rkyd00d 65 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Flat_Accent
I can see bohm, that you've led me on a merry song and dance here, by asking and then answering your own question, responding to an argument I didn't even make. I won't say you made me look stupid because that's bound to end up badly for me.
bohm: Did he ever define his beliefs on Hellfire?! Gay Marriage?!
FA: No, and I didn't expect him to-
bohm: HOW DARE YOU CRITISIZE THIS VIDEO ON THE GROUNDS IT DOESN'T DEFINE SOMETHING
No, none of those things are mentioned. And I'm not critical of the video for not mentioning them - as I said in that portion you neatly missed out of your reply, the first reason for doing so is that the subject matter in the poem is not relevant to Hellfire, Gay Marriage etc.
What he does do, however, is give us some sense of how he applies christianity in his life:
"I love the bible, I love the church and yes I believe in sin." He also is part of the Mars Hill church, but we'll get to that in a minute. The point is, for him, there's more to it than Jesus being a good man, he still follows all the normal rules and regulations that would classify him 'Christian'. And as cofty has so rightly pointed out, Jesus was a follower of the law too, so again this 'Jesus came to abolish religion!' argument falls flat on it's face.
I don't know why you find the 'promotional ad' comment so funny, he's done a good job of it - just set your dial to the 'easy listening' portion of christianity and that's pretty much his poem. How you can call TAA's vid an emotional appeal just because he read directly from the bible is beyond me.
As for the second half of your response here, Bethke is a member of this Mars Hill church group. I decided to take a look at some of the sermons online, and here's a few quotations:
Jesus was a man who claimed to be God. Think on that for a minute. If that were true, how would it change the way you thought, felt, and lived this life?
At Mars Hill, we believe that Jesus is God.God killed everyone. Why? They were perverts. Why? Guys were having sex with guys, and those people went to Hell. If you think that's pro-gay, I mean, I know the public school system isn't delivering the best outcome, but man, you really gotta leap to make that to be pro-gay.
The fate of every man and woman who has or will ever live is this: death, and then either heaven for blessing, or hell for suffering. Those alone are the options. Your eternal destiny is sealed upon your death. This life is your only opportunity. Hell is the wrath of God in effect. If you do not believe in and belong to Jesus, you are in the path of the wrath of God that ultimately culminates in the conscious, eternal torment of hell.
I believe that we were made image bearers of God, and the farther we get from God, one generation after the next, the more we start to act like animals.
Because of that, some people hypothesize that we came from animals. We didn't. We've just fallen, we've descended to where we're acting more like animals than we intended to.The evolutionists are wrong. We don't spring from nothing by nothing for no reason. The impersonal does not make the personal. Nothing does not make something. . . So, we don't believe in evolution.
In addition, it's interesting. Jesus talks about the days of Noah in Matthew 24:37-39. Now, a lot of scholars say, "Hmm, I'm not sure I believe in Noah. I think it's myth." Jesus believed in Noah. Jesus talked about Noah. Go with Jesus.
I hope that clears a few things up.
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Flat_Accent
I also think it's funny that we're pretty much on the same side of the argument, and this all escalated because of our opposite views on AmazingAtheist. No hard feelings I hope.
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d0rkyd00d
Cofty, I see you've chosen not to address any of the examples I listed of Jesus violating sabbath laws, blaspheming that he was as great as God, and associating with sinners. Until you address that, I can't take your out of context scripture seriously for discussion.
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cofty
Cofty, I see you've chosen not to address any of the examples I listed of Jesus violating sabbath laws, blaspheming that he was as great as God, and associating with sinners. Until you address that, I can't take your out of context scripture seriously for discussion. - D0rkyd00d
D0rkyd00d - Did you mean to sound so arrogant? I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume not.
Jesus chose to violate Jewish law and tradition every chance he got. He healed, performed miracles, and walked through fields numerous times on the Sabbath, was strongly opposed to stoning a woman who had committed adultery, regularly associated with those who were "disfellowshipped" from the Jewish church or were otherwised considered sinners, and made it clear that it wasn't what one "ate" them made them unclean.
I did address your point very directly. For the third time - Jesus criticised the oppressive application of the Law he never preached a single word against the Law. Nothing he did on the Sabbath broke the Law given through Moses, it only violated the legalistic traditions of 1st Century Jewish tradition. He taught that the sabbath was absolutely to be observed but the pedantic application of the Law that would allow you to rescue an animal but not heal a leper was not the intent of the Law.
Where in the Law does it talk about "disfellowshipping"? Not only are you reading the gospels through a christian lens you are reading it with a JW lens. Associating with sinners was not against the Law, it was against 1st Century Jewish custom.
The Law did proscribe the death penalty for adultery but it did not forbid the exercise of mercy - consider the example of David & Bathsheeba. Jesus did not criticise the Law he simply challenged the mob to take a look at their own hypocrisy. He did not forbid the crowd to judge the woman he simply said "Let him without sin cast the first stone". Incidently the account was not originally part of John's gospel.
Have you even heard of the Torah?
Have you even heard of treating others respectfully?
You will not find a single incident in the gospels where Jesus violated the Law of Moses, only numerous examples of him challenging legalisitc traditions.
You ignored my point that if Jesus violated the Law at every opportunity as you assert, in what way would that make him sinless?
You assert wrongly that I quoted Jesus out of context. How much context would you like me to provide? Please explain why you think Jesus didn't mean what he plainly says here?
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." - Matt 5:17-20
Jesus did not preach against the Law in the Sermon on the Mount, he told his listeners that they had to go beyond simply obeying the letter of the Law and that their righteousness must exceed that of the Scribes and Pharisees.
"Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach." Matt 23:1-3
Jesus was a religious Jew. He kept the festivals and the Sabbath and the dietry restrictions and everything else the OT Law required and taught his followers to do the same. His earliest followers were a Jewish sect.
You are failing, despite my best efforts, to distinguish between the Law as recorded in the OT and the evolution of Jewish religious tradition more than 1000 years later.
I would like to discuss this with you further but maybe you could tone down the condescension?
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Qcmbr
I think we also have to balance this against the idea that any historical Jesus (if there was a real one and not several wandering prophets meshed together) is accessible only through the writings of very biased politicised scribes many years after the event. There are examples where it seems the author was trying to emphasise a rebel Jesus (temple and money changers narrative) or a trinitarian Jesus or a human Jesus who was used by the Christ etc. The myths and legends only loosely back each other up and so its very tough to try and describe this supposed character.
Tec is of course lying when she claims that someone can know Christ through the spirit (maybe not intentionally but logically) since no one devoid of Christian propganda ever spontaneously gains Christ knowledge from invisible beings (we'd expect numerous christian faiths derived solely in isolation to each other and all gleefully preaching the exact same gospel when they met when of course even the christians who have the same 'spirit' and the same book are just making it up and deciding - as tec does - which version of a Christ they/their culture prefer.)
This rhyming poet is once again proving the emptiness of the whole experience by trying to play religious bankers, creating a toxic holding bank called religion in which to dump all the crud while trying to spin off a new structureless shiny bank (confusingly called christianity) which has all the 'benefits' of the old (bible, sin etc.) but non of the tough to explain historical baggage. This ideological fluff so beloved by tec and her ilk is perfect as one can avoid ever explaining anything by simply ignoring it as 'religion' while pretending to a more up to date socially acceptable model - completely without any divine authority , no divine manifestation has authorised their made up piffle despite god clearly saying he would only reveal his secret to his servants the prophets (Amos 3:7). The really awkward thing about this form of childishness (its not my fault I didn't make up that mess - religion did) is that it downgrades the one piece of proof that their god gave them (the bible) to a partial book of half truths while glorifying a structureless lack of organisation, a veritable anarchy of heaven , which is the very furthest away attribute for god any reading of any part of any scripture can give you. It also completely robs them of any credibility or any actual power as they refuse to take any responsibility for their religious faith and simply utterly fulfill the scripture regarding their status as infanst blown about by every wind of doctrine(Ephesians 4:14). Tomorrow brings up a tough question, quick get some spiritual sauce and tada - the failure was religion, I can skip to a new evidenceless understanding over here.
I'm afraid tec and her - make it up as we go along crowd - are simply allowing satan(lulz)/imagination/foolishness to guide them since biblegod will kick their ill disciplined backsides if he ever bothers to show up. they pretend to speak on his belhalf , do a cock eyed job and certainly have zero authority to do so.
That said the rhyme was cleverly delivered if illogical and puerile.
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botchtowersociety
I actually sat through the entire drunken, expletive-laced rant. This guy, "Amazing Atheist," has turned into an internet meme.
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designs
The Jewish Messiah- Human with a human father, gets the job done with one visit, units humanity.
The NT Messiah- None of the above.
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Qcmbr
designs - isn't that Jewish Messiah yet to come ?
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THE GLADIATOR
Oh! Qcmbr
You have just eloquently explained why I gave up on Christianity and arguing about it with modern Christians. I have no desire to destroy other people's faith. At the same time I have to restrain myself from pointing out the contradictions. I have not given up on love, kindness and peace - just the Christ badge. Always enjoy your posts.
Peace and may your gods or your philosophy sustain you through life’s too short a journey.