Theists, why does God allow suffering..

by The Quiet One 754 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • WheninDoubt
    WheninDoubt

    Based on your own question:

    Do you believe in a God?

    Then you have already judged that he exists. (perhaps based on your experiences, and your view of the physical evidence that is available)

    Acknowledgment supersedes. Therefore it is neither an opinion nor conclusion to know God existence unless you have otherwise been there, so acknowledgement based in faith.

    The judgment expressed here would be to an evil none caring God. Premise that all evil man does falls under the creator. If a child kills, steals, becomes an alcoholic, drug addict, etc. is that the fault of the parent? Depends on how they were brought up, or is it. To society they are prejudged. So you rely on predisposition, guessing just as in everything unknown. Therefore Judgment becomes ambiguous.

  • cofty
    cofty
    Therefore as explained by coffy that doesn’t believe in God and is outright wishing to blame the cumulative destruction for something on GOD, God has become the easiest target, and as you state, that has never been seen.

    Could you rephrase that using normal rules of English grammar please?

    By the way its Cofty not coffy.

  • Head-of-feathers
    Head-of-feathers

    I am brand new here and was looking for something else...ooh shiny...and would like to weigh in on the OP's question. I will not claim to be well read, and I do not, by any means, have all the answers, but I do have some opinions on this from a "theist" point of view.

    First, let me say that atheists are entitled to their view of facts and science. Tangible physical evidence is certainly a strong argument, but to forego any arguing on that point, I'll grant that there could have been an evolutionary process in conjunction with Bible doctrine. However (there's always one of those, right?), I would like to say as an author of stories, as a "creator" of sorts, I have the ability to start my stories anywhere. A 38-year-old woman walking into a grocery store, for example, my readers have no clue of her history and background other than what I reveal about her. So, that being said, I will ask those who are avid evolutionists to grant, for the sake of the current argument only, the possibility that God created the world in aged form because as a creator, that was His vision. I'm not asking for belief, simply establishing "neutralish ground" for the sake of addressing animal cruelty and sin from a Biblical standpoint and attempting to reconcile a loving God in all of this.

    I love animals. I've rescued many, and my heart goes out to their hurts. I also do not have an ivory tower background. I won't go into my past, but I know very well how cruel the world can be.

    All that said, Adam and Eve sinned (it doesn't matter HOW perfect people sinned for this argument, so I won't address that here), thus bringing about a fallen race and cursed environment. Let's look at quarantine in illness briefly. The illness is contained so it doesn't spread beyond the quarantine area, but it would be awful to destroy everyone because they were exposed to the disease. And the results often bring about immunities. And, because this is a "theist" point of view, I'll go out on a limb and argue that God didn't wipe them out because He wanted them to have that right to choose, and still establish that immunization against any other "disease" of the type. That's my summary of my view of the fall. Why this story and not one without all this mess? To be honest, I don't have a clue, but again, irrelevant for this topic.

    Because land, sea, animals, vegetation, AND mankind are now "under quarantine" all are cursed with this mess. We, as the beginning of the sickness, have to watch nature become what we have become. We opened the door to the spread of infection. Survival of the fittest, rejecting the caregiver on one hand, becoming completely reliant on the other. Animals have been given the nature of the beast, so to speak, and every day we have to see what we have done. Humans have to witness the suffereing they caused when they in essence said to their "author" "We don't like your plan. We can do better." We've seen this in people whose bodies had devolved immunities to diseases still carrying it and nearly or completely wiping out groups of people who had never been exposed. Without exposing all of the world around to the disease, it certainly could have ended similarly. It would certainly explain extinction of species and the flood; our "disease" brought about death to all (again not ready to tackle this in any more depth).

    It breaks my heart that animals suffer, that people suffer, but I am a person of faith, even after going through my own little version of "hell" in this life. I struggled with my own inner debate between God and atheism for nearly 20 years. Do I blame God? Nope. Do I believe he has the power to change all this? Yep. Do I believe that animals should suffer? No. And I can make no claims apart from that.

    Has nature, in reflecting the disease humans brought into the world become a threat to that which often threatens? Absolutely! I read an article recently about plants developing resistance to chemicals meant to enhance "domestic crops" and kill wild crops so much so that those "annoying" wild crops are threatening to take over some areas. This pain and damage in evolution that has been expressed, not only serves as a violent and painful reminder of how insane nature, including the human kind, truly is, it also serves as a defense mechanism against that often greatest threat, usually man himself.

    I an not adept Biblically to quote scripture on this, and I'm certainly no scientist, but I believe God feels anger over the condition every day, but unlike me, who would get angry and burn the whole book and start from scratch, God is extremely patient and is letting this "quarantine" go on so that when the time comes, everyone will either be eternally quarantined or be immunized against further disease of this kind, and there will be no ground to argue that our way was better when the quarantine is finally lifted. I don't have an answer to reconcile why He would plan this plot line, but being a creative type myself, I can't help but believe there is a reason bigger than I can see in my limited scope of all of this.

    I don't know what happens to animals in death, I'm certainly not God, but I know that if I care so strongly about the works I create, the One who made me does as well. I, personally, need that strong hand of God, but that doesn't mean I can attack my fellow man for different beliefs, and it does mean I have a responsibility to love my fellow man and the nature I am supposed to nurture and care for.

    The characters in my books don't know what and why things go the way they go, but I do. They see that place they are now, and can look at what lies behind them, I know the whole story at any given moment.

    I can only believe that God is the same, that He is looking on all of it and taking a deep breath and saying "I know it looks like a mess from here to here, but the end is so beautiful that I wouldn't change a thing!" And it always helps to remember, the end of that story of the 38 year-old woman I mentioned at the start of this is not the true end of the story. We don't know what came before for sure, nor what comes after because we neither experienced the beginning, nor have we come to the end, nor did we create this story in which we live.

    The cruelty we see in nature should serve as a reminder of our responsibility toward not only suffering animals, but also our fellow man, no matter what our beliefs.

    And that's all I'll say on the matter...ooh...shiny!

  • cofty
    cofty

    Hi Headoffeathers and welcome - The problem with your proposals are..

    1 - Evolution is a fact. Humans evolved from non-human ancestors over millions of years. There was no original sin and no fall from perfection. Animals have been dying by the billions from hunger, predation, exposure and disease for millions of years before humans existed.

    This is not an opinion it is a fact.

    2 - Even within the last 10 000 years the suffering in the animal kingdom caused by humans is trivial in comparison to that caused by predation. Animals are perfectly designed to kill and eat other animals in ways that we find horrifying. Every single detail of their bodies are designed for this purpose, including their teeth, eyesight, skeleton, muscle fibers, claws, hearing, digestive system, cellular respiration and much much more?

    None of these physical attributes suddenly appeared when a naked lady ate a piece of fruit did they?

  • Viviane
    Viviane
    First, let me say that atheists are entitled to their view of facts and science. Tangible physical evidence is certainly a strong argument, but to forego any arguing on that point, I'll grant that there could have been an evolutionary process in conjunction with Bible doctrine.

    There is no such thing as an "atheist view" of facts and science. There are simply facts and science. Evolution is a fact beyond all reasonable doubt.

    I will ask those who are avid evolutionists to grant, for the sake of the current argument only, the possibility that God created the world in aged form because as a creator, that was His vision. I'm not asking for belief, simply establishing "neutralish ground" for the sake of addressing animal cruelty and sin from a Biblical standpoint and attempting to reconcile a loving God in all of this.

    That is certainly possible, but it's not "neutral" because all, literally ALL of evidence points against that.

    The illness is contained so it doesn't spread beyond the quarantine area, but it would be awful to destroy everyone because they were exposed to the disease. And the results often bring about immunities. And, because this is a "theist" point of view, I'll go out on a limb and argue that God didn't wipe them out because He wanted them to have that right to choose, and still establish that immunization against any other "disease" of the type.

    That argument doesn't hold water. According to your holy book we are all already sick, infected, diseased, and there is a doctor who can heal us, but only if we grovel and pay with blood and look the other way while he murders millions with no discretion.

  • Head-of-feathers
    Head-of-feathers

    Cofty, thanks for the welcome.

    1) I agree it may appear a fact based on physical evidence and the human understanding of that evidence. I am not a "blind-faith"er, I've looked at science, still rather enjoy it, actually. But I believe in, and have experienced, the power of God, so we'll have to agree to disagree on the exact way things came about.

    2) I wasn't there at the start of anything, so I can only go on the choice I make, a choice between fact (based on human interpretation of the physical evidence) or faith (based on personal experience that I can't deny). We fall on opposite sides.

    I don't believe the attributes you describe "suddenly appeared," but as I mentioned with the plants and human interference with nature, there has been rapid evolutionary processes in nature over a short period of time that have been witnessed.

    Humans have created weapons and done horrible things to each other. My point was not what humans have done to animals, but the reflection of human actions in animal life. So if the creation view is true (which you will argue it isn't and I will respectfully disagree) then my presentation of sin being a disease which infected the entire world because of mans' actions, based on a Biblical viewpoint would make sense.

    I can tell by your tone about biblical things that it would be a pointless to quote scripture to you, and you already have your mind made up about things. (I know: facts. But my faith is as real to me as the facts are to you. And I don't deny the facts, merely the human interpretation of such.) I was willing to make concessions I don't believe to try to reason. That is how secure I am in my faith and my belief in God. To be honest, I don't feel you are open to alternate ideas at all. Your mind is made up, your beliefs are set. You will respond with the same argument each time. In a way, I respect that.

    It is, however, pointless for two rocks to have a staring contest...at least until they grow eyes in 10,000 years. LOL

    Have a great night!

  • Viviane
    Viviane
    1) I agree it may appear a fact based on physical evidence and the human understanding of that evidence. I am not a "blind-faith"er, I've looked at science, still rather enjoy it, actually.

    You've described someone with blind faith perfectly. You KNOW there is evidence contrary to your belief but choose to ignore it. How is that not blind faith?

  • defender of truth
    defender of truth

    Whenindoubt.. I have no idea what you mean. I'll leave it to more intelligient people than myself to assess whether my post about judging God on page 48 should have been worded better. It had 1 like, so hopefully someone got what I was trying to say.

    -----

    Head-of-feathers, welcome to the discussion.

    "Let's look at quarantine in illness briefly. The illness is contained so it doesn't spread beyond the quarantine area, but it would be awful to destroy everyone because they were exposed to the disease."

    It would also be awful to allow an entire planet to be exposed to a disease for which you had the cure, especially a disease that you had originally designed and released yourself for the purpose of infecting just one species. Wouldn't you agree?

    "I'll go out on a limb and argue that God didn't wipe them out because He wanted them to have that right to choose.."

    What choice has any animal had in the matter? None. Is that fair?

    "We opened the door to the spread of infection."

    It's not that simple. Biblically speaking, God chose to threaten mankind with the 'infectious disease' if they didn't obey him, infected us when we disobeyed, then (according to your proposition) allowed the 'infection' to spread to innocent creatures, when he could have contained it at any point.

    "Humans have to witness the suffering they caused when they in essence said to their 'author': ''We don't like your plan. We can do better."

    So you are suggesting that a 'God of love' let mankind harm, infect and destroy his creatures to show that his way of doing things is correct?

    "Do I believe that animals should suffer? No."

    And on that we certainly agree.

    It is an injustice that even the most creative believers in a loving God cannot defend, they generally seem to blame it on humans.. despite the fact that animals suffered before any 'original sin' is supposed to have occurred.


  • cofty
    cofty
    I am not a "blind-faith"er

    Yes you are. Be proud of it. Have the courage of your convictions to declare you believe in spite of all the evidence.

    Subjective experience doesn't trump objective evidence. Every Muslim and Mormon can attest to their personal experience of the truthfulness of their brand of superstition.

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    Acknowledgment supersedes. Therefore it is neither an opinion nor conclusion to know God existence unless you have otherwise been there, so acknowledgement based in faith.


    What do you mean by "acknowledgement?"

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