Theists, why does God allow suffering.. (page 47)

defender of truth

Last Bttt.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

As my final contribution to JWN, I just found this excellent article. I think it sums things up nicely, here are a few of the key points..

"[1. Animal suffering is due to the fall of Adam]
...The problem with both of these variations is why should animals be punished for what man did? It seems grossly unfair and unkind to subject them to such terrible suffering for something that was totally beyond their control.

[2. Animal suffering is due to the evil influence of demons and Satan.]
...The problem with this view is well expressed by Richard Kingston:
If God entrusted to fallible angelic beings such absolute control over creation that it was within their power to "brutalize" the animal kingdom for all time, then he cannot be exonerated from all culpability for what allegedly happened. Must we not go further and say that such action would indicate either incompetence or the fact that the sufferings of the lower creatures are unimportant in eyes of the Creator? (Animals and Christianity, p. 74 cited by Loftus, p. 251).

[3. Animals really do NOT suffer]
...Science has conclusively shown that animals do in fact feel pain and experience the emotions of fear and anxiety as well. An omniscient God would have known this when he created the animal kingdom so the only conclusion one can draw is that he simply doesn't care about their suffering.

[4. and 5. God is indifferent to animal suffering]
...The problem with this view is that it is repugnant to man's moral sensibilities. It would make God no different from those, like Michael Vick, who run dog-fighting rings. If what Vick did was morally disgusting, then what the Creator has done on a much larger scale is even more disgusting."

http://formerfundy.blogspot.com/2010/05/christian-delusion-chapter-nine.html

defender of truth

Final final bump, scouts honour.. ;)
But this post was SO moving that I really HAD to re-post it from Cofty's thread.

I've edited it slightly for brevity and to just show the parts that apply directly to this topic.
What do YOU feel or think about the concept of a loving God, when you read heartfelt comments like these?..

Humbled said:
"But here is the case for me:
I have seen so much of the suffering of animals.
When I first came to live with my husband on his farm in the Ozark mountains I could not bear the ways that pain and death overtook creatures in the barnyard and woodland.
A stray dog tore through a nest of kittens, a hog waiting for his feed reached sideways to a rooster and munched off shoulder and breast of the bird whose grieving cries were hushed when the hog swallowed his first bite and then ate the rooster's head off.
I heard the strange cries a frog makes as it commences its one-way trip into a blacksnake's belly. The plaintive shriek of a young rabbit when the farm dog lays tender flesh bare with a flick of her teeth. Not to mention the torments of innumerable mice and baby birds for the amusement of generations of barn cats, and horrors more than these..."

(Talking here about having to kill animals at times)
"....But I, I make that end swift and painless.
So that is my case--The dog does not do the same for a chicken. And sadly, he cannot gainsay me.
Obviously it is only fair to say on the dog's behalf that he doesn't have the same resources as I do-- even if he had a disposition toward the chicken as kindly as my own.
But God doesn't have the dog's excuse, does He?

...I am far from a saint. My failures depress me-- but it has served this: to make me all the more suspicious of claims of an all-powerfull all-loving God, who supplies no evidence of a concern equal to my own."
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/experiences/269000/127/The-Pastor-of-my-Old-Church-Tried-to-Re-Convert-Me-Yesterday

defender of truth

A Jehovah's Witness recently gave me the following response to the question posed in this topic (Why does a loving God allow animals to suffer?):

"God is allowing mankind the freedom that he rebelled for- which also includes animal abuse."

.....?

prologos

Interesting observation on coping with suffering by Bob Simpson [RIP] on Charly Rose tonight (recorded highlights of past interviews): "--During my beatings in Iraq, my brain automatically adjusted to the blows, so no pain was directly registered, it was an automatic thing and a feature that was corroborated by others that also had been tortured.---" so, possibly, during evolution, the suffering part of violent dying was suppressed, when it served no further survival advantage? That feature of our makeup helped him to carry on with a successful life later? to paraphrase the scripture: " with every trouble, --there is a way out, not beyond what you (or others) can bear?.

defender of truth

prologos:

"so, possibly, during evolution, the suffering part of violent dying was suppressed, when it served no further survival advantage? "

Are you suggesting that animals do not suffer when being mauled, poisoned or dying from cancer?

I don't quite follow you.

Fisherman

When thinking for an answer one can feel hopeless and defeated and helpless. I try not to think about this because it is very painful. One tries to find some reason some justification but it cannot be done. One way to view this is: God knows and who am I to judge God.

cofty

God knows and who am I to judge God.

You are an intelligent, morally responsible human adult.

It would be reprehensible not to judge such a monster.

WheninDoubt

This argument is too literal.

1. The point that animals are sinless is at best ambiguous. In the Garden of Eden of the bible, man’s pitfall started with the weakest species, the snake.

2. God created man to subdue all of his creation which is written in Genesis 1:27-28.

3. then explain, the lions, tigers, and bears oh my!!!!!!!!!!! And for that matter sharks. Wild beasts that have no conscience but to kill for nourishment.

The fact that you blame GOD is how narrow this argument became for you, although I don’t understand what that has to do with JW’s is beyond me. Man’s imperfections belong to man and his inherited sins.

To blame the horrific acts that man does to animals for cruelty or sport is the collective of over 6000 thousands years man has felt not just for the animal kingdom but for man itself.

cofty

WheninDoubt - So many things in your post that contradict reality.

There was no garden of Eden and no talking snake.

Humans were not created 6000 years ago. We evolved from non-human ancestors over millions of years. There was no original perfection - whatever that means - and no "fall".

The natural world appears to be organised to maximise the suffering of animals. This is a problem for theists whether they have the intellectual honesty to admit it or not.

Theists, why does God allow suffering..

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