It makes no sense whatsoever that a" CREATOR" would only communicate with a minority of the population then put the onus on them to convey this life saving message to the WHOLE wide world (page 5)

tec

Wouldn't it be more impressive if he would communicate to those who are not already worshipping him? Why preach to the converted - this seems like a waste of time if there's a real message to be delivered. If everyone 'heard' a simultaneous and specific message,

everyone would be talking about it, know it for what it is and there would be no doubt and no need for faith.

I have to disagree 100% that everyone would 'know it for what it is, and there would be no doubt'.

People lie to themselves about things that are right in front of their faces all the time. They lie to others, and others believe those lies because they want to. People would deny this 'simultaneous' message as well... if that message went against what they wanted.

How many 'Christians' read every day that one should love ones enemies as well as friends... and yet deny that this means what it says?

Hi Tammy. That comment seems to imply that one can't love and care for others unless they "hear Him". I'd suggest there are millions of non-believers who are sans faith that do have genuine love and care for others. Belief in a god is not necessary at all. And as poopsie pointed out, for a great many their faith causes the exact opposite of love and care.

That comment was meant for those who do hear (or read from a holy book... or hear in their conscience, which includes atheists), but do not listen to that voice, or that book, or their conscience... because they want to do their own thing instead. I agree with you that there ARE millions of non-believers (and believers of different faiths) who have genuine love and care for others.

Peace,

Tammy

OnTheWayOut

You say that I am lacking something. I am lacking faith in God. It is insulting to say that I lack something.

I may lack things, but faith is not something I lack. I have grown beyond faith in myths.

He chooses people who can and will hear him (necessary).

What if I were to tell you that I had reached a point in my life where I desparately wanted to "hear him" ? That is absolutely true. I wound up being a JW because I was one of those. If a person at that point in life who will present himself to God ready to obey, can be so misled, then I don't want to be misled again. I am not "against" hearing him, but I won't bother to put faith in belief until He/She/It/They make(s) it crystal clear what the correct path is. Until then, I have looked into science and history and archaeology. Since He/She/It/They haven't put the call out, I have to assume that a loving God who kills children in tsunamis doesn't exist. It's so contradictory that I think I am showing more faith than people who believe in such a monster.

Yan Bibiyan

Tammy,

You have children.

If you see a danger looming onto them, do you send them criptic messages through 3rd party messengers to get out of the way, or do you in your clearest and most understandable voice tell them to get out of harm's way?

If one of them didn't listen or understand, do you punish all for it?

Just asking, on our imperfect, corrupt, sinner human level...

SweetBabyCheezits

N. Drew: I veiw communication like a tree.

Ahh, I get it now.

N.drew

If you see a danger looming onto them, do you send them criptic messages through 3rd party messengers to get out of the way, or do you in your clearest and most understandable voice tell them to get out of harm's way?

For some people it is natural to do the opposite of what is ordered. But you were not talking to me, so never mind!

tec

You say that I am lacking something. I am lacking faith in God. It is insulting to say that I lack something.

I may lack things, but faith is not something I lack. I have grown beyond faith in myths.

If someone said to me that I lack a university education, they would be stating a fact. No need for me to be insulted. If they said it to me with a sneer and derision, then it would still be a fact, but it would be insulting. I am not stating your 'absence' (if that word suits better) of faith in God in a sneering manner. Just as a fact.

Your statement "I have grown beyond faith in myths" implies an insult toward anyone who has not grown in the same way. Implying that they lack that maturity. This can also grate on the nerves... but there is nothing to be done about it that I can see, other than to not judge one another.

What if I were to tell you that I had reached a point in my life where I desparately wanted to "hear him" ? That is absolutely true. I wound up being a JW because I was one of those.

I know. For me, I didn't even know I could (or might have been) hearing Him or His call. I just wanted to know what I should also be teaching my children. I chose to listen to the JW's instead of asking for help from God and His Son. That was my choice... was it based on mis or lack of correct teachings of men? Perhaps. I would suggest that He might have been talking to you (and me) and you might not have understood. But what seemed to you to be a visual, physical answer in the form of the JW's had your attention instead. Then it becomes that case of the blind leading the blind.

I did the same thing. Perhaps it was the only thing you or I were capable of getting, due to our level of faith - or - non-faith at the time.

If a person at that point in life who will present himself to God ready to obey, can be so misled, then I don't want to be misled again. I am not "against" hearing him, but I won't bother to put faith in belief until He/She/It/They make(s) it crystal clear what the correct path is. Until then, I have looked into science and history and archaeology. Since He/She/It/They haven't put the call out, I have to assume that a loving God who kills children in tsunamis doesn't exist. It's so contradictory that I think I am showing more faith than people who believe in such a monster.

If faith is necessary to hear, then I see no way for someone without faith TO hear. (Unless God forces himself upon someone like that... but he does not tend to force himself upon us) However, what is impossible for men (and what I think might be impossible) is not impossible for God.

As for the bolded part, I don't know if you're showing more faith... but probably more understanding.

Peace,

Tammy

Yan Bibiyan

N. Drew:

"If you see a danger looming onto them, do you send them criptic messages through 3rd party messengers to get out of the way, or do you in your clearest and most understandable voice tell them to get out of harm's way?

For some people it is natural to do the opposite of what is ordered. But you were not talking to me, so never mind!"

OK, then. Now I can ask you the same question. And just to be clear, this has nothing to do with "what is ordered". I am talking about one's parental instinct.

So, what do you say?

tec

If you see a danger looming onto them, do you send them criptic messages through 3rd party messengers to get out of the way, or do you in your clearest and most understandable voice tell them to get out of harm's way?

If they won't listen to me and my voice, then I hope that I would continue to try through third party messengers. They might not listen to those either. In which case, what can I do?

If one of them didn't listen or understand, do you punish all for it?

Not at all. But if there are natural consequences, then what can I do about that?

Lets say I told my adult kids not to drive drunk. Then they don't listen to me. There are also laws stating the same, MADD organizations stating the same, victims stating the same. They choose not to listen to those as well. The only thing remaining is the natural consequences that come from their choices. Unfortunately, harming innocent people might be part of those consequences.

Peace,

tammy

tec

never mind this post... misread something.

Yan Bibiyan

If they won't listen to me and my voice, then I hope that I would continue to try through third party messengers. They might not listen to those either. In which case, what can I do?

So, you would try EVERYTHING in your power to reach them, including (or should we say, starting with) talking to them directly?

They are not physically limited to not hearing your voice or seeing you. Would you try to tell them directly, or would you hope they check under the doormat for that note that you told their greatuncle to leave there some 2000 years ago and maybe he did, ah who knows, let's all believe he did....

If they were in real danger, what do you do?

EDIT: Tammy, just saw your post above recinding the one I quoted from. My current post stands, as it addresses the thread topic.

It makes no sense whatsoever that a" CREATOR" would only communicate with a minority of the population then put the onus on them to convey this life saving message to the WHOLE wide world

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