Cognitive Dissonance for Fundamenatlists
by leavingwt 128 Replies latest jw friends
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NewChapter
As a bible-believing Christian myself, could I suggest you don't know what you are talking about? I mean, I think I have some other options here than the one you have for me.
Yes there are other options. You could choose to say your god is nuts and refuse to obey. You could suggest that your way is better. You could call it immoral and set your morality up as higher than your gods. Or perhaps you could just tell us what option you would take.
What would you do Sulla? What would you do if your god decided that those freaking peace loving Swedes were occupying a land that he thinks belongs to you, and the only way to claim that land is to kill all of the inhabitants? What if he told you not to feel bad for the inhabitants but to hack every single one of them, man, woman and child, to bits? Would you obey, or would you admit that your god is not acting morally?
There are plenty of people that would start hacking away.
NC
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NewChapter
The bad ol' atheists like Stalin or Robespierre, given their acts, surely didn't bat an eyelash.
They didn't act on the basis of their atheism. Why would they? Yet they had their own ideology that required obedience and a lack of critical thinking. I will call out their ideologies too---but it wasn't atheism.
If Hitler was a vegetarian (probably not) would we blame his vegetarianism for his crimes? No.
There are many murderers in the world. Most are not motivated by their belief in god or their lack of belief in gods. The Inquistion, the Crusades, sucide bombers, slavery, witch hunts---all of these are motivated by god beliefs.
There are bad atheists---yes. But nothing about atheism motivates people to commit atrocities. The same can't be said for god belief. Prove to me that Stalin killed for the sake of atheism, and we can discuss it. He killed for the sake of a different ideology and a quest for power.
Don't get confused over causation. Atheists are not guaranteed a ticket to heaven because of any atrocities they commit. They commit no act in the name of any god----or in the name of nonbelief. Committing genocide does not make a god smile on the atheist. If they take part in these crimes, it is for a different ideology that is not linked to atheism. So they happen to be mass murderers and atheists. One does not cause the other.
Frankly I can't think of any reason an atheist would want to kill for the sake of atheism. That's pretty much a dead end. We can't say the same for religion. The bible is full of accounts of righteous people killing for just that---religion.
NC
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Sulla
NC, I guess you've never been to a Good Friday service. Or, if you have, you weren't paying attention. No matter.
Your other posts are... well, they're not right. Actually, they're not even wrong, so...
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NewChapter
I don't need to go to a Good Friday service (although I have, and it is to commemorate the sacrifical death of Jesus)
Good Friday is observed on the Friday before Easter Sunday. On this day Christians commemorate the passion, or suffering, and death on the cross of the Lord, Jesus Christ.
Many Christians spend this day in fasting, prayer, repentance, and meditation on the agony and suffering of Christ on the cross. (For a more detailed explanation about Christ's death, see Why Did Jesus Have to Die?)
The biblical account of Jesus' death on the cross, or crucifixion, his burial and his resurrection, or raising from the dead, can be found in the following passages of Scripture: Matthew 27:27-28:8; Mark 15:16-16:19; Luke 23:26-24:35; and John 19:16-20:30.
And I don't blame you for not answering the other points. They were good ones.
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SweetBabyCheezits
Sulla: Yes, life an an atheist in the 21st century American context is such challenge. Exactly the sort of bold moral action that makes it quite certain that, were you living in Carthage back in the day, you'd have had a) the moral insight to object to the practice and b) the courage to stand against it.
[edited to remove "Dear Pompous Assclown"]
It's true - I very well might've followed along with the culture of that time & area. I don't deny that. (See definition of the adverb maybe.) It would've been incredibly difficult to evolve morally under those circumstances. Does that mean not one individual among them fled, defected, or at some point voiced objection? Is that what you're saying? I don't have the statistics in front of me and I'm no historian so perhaps you could dumb it down for me.
To insist that you know exactly what I or anyone else on this forum would've done in Carthage - even while uncertainty exists as to how prevalent child sacrifice really was there - is decidedly arrogant of you. In other words, it's expected.
Granted, I'm ignorant. The only thing I'm certain of is that one of us rejects the notion of a bipolar, bloodthirsty deity who demands the saccharine adoration of his creations and becomes petulant if he doesn't receive his flattery. The other is you.
Also, you say I'm guilty of moral preening, which to your credit is a terrific expression to use here. But it's not that I think my standards of morality are inherently higher. They aren't. It's more that I believe some people morally evolve and develop autonomous thought at a faster clip than others. For example, I don't have a governing body directing my views on morality, nor do I have a pope. How about you?
As for the moral insight and courage to object, I lost somewhere around 90% of my cherished family relationships by taking a stand for my views. Ergo, shut the fuck up about that which ye not know.Warm heathen love,
SBC
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snare&racket
I love you guys by the way :) I am proud to share your company on this forum x
Cofty
New Chapter
Sweet Baby Cheezits
You are paticularly awesome
Snare x
To those that insist on arguing with them, they are trying to save you from years of guilt and ignorant worship of empty space. They have the best intentions.
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Sulla
As for the moral insight and courage to object, I lost somewhere around 90% of my cherished family relationships by taking a stand for my views. Ergo, shut the fuck up about that which ye not know.
Golly. I had it all wrong:r You really are some kind of hero! Lost your cherished family relationships for deciding to leave the JWs! Who among us could ever question your moral superiority after that? You've earned it, SBC, you've earned it!
Anyhow, once you ignore your comments that are designed to change the topic, we really are left with my basic claim that everybody here would have merrily sacrificed kids along with everybody else at the time. You find it unbearably arrogant for me to assume you are not the moral hero you have now shown yourself to be, never mind that the list of moral heroes against this practice have, as a matter of historical fact, been really violent, unappealing, and grim fellows like Josiah, who stopped the practice of child sacrifice with long knives. One is left to presume guys like you, who after all have been through the crucible of unanswered text messages from cherished family members, would have launched some sort of "occupy Moab" movement and brought the whole thing down.
You and your moral vanity really outta get a room.
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cofty
the list of moral heroes against this practice have, as a matter of historical fact, been really violent, unappealing, and grim fellows like Josiah, who stopped the practice of child sacrifice with long knives
Yes Yahweh put an end to Canaanite child sacrifice by having Joshua's army slaughter all the children - bible god is a genius!
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NewChapter
Okay, but to the point. We have agreed on the point that given a different time and culture, human sacrifice may have made sense to us.
We are living in the here and now Sulla. Now that science has answered some of the scary questions, and we ALL understand that human sacrifice really doesn't win wars or bring good harvests, we need to ask a basic question---which you keep ignoring.
Today---this culture---does it make sense to defend a god that ordered genocide, slavery, subjection of woman, stonings and human sacrifice? This is not a question of whether it made sense thousands of years ago---this is a question of does it makes sense today? With the accumulated knowledge of a couple of millenia---does it make sense? Who would support it today? And why do they do so?
NC
