Cognitive Dissonance for Fundamenatlists

by leavingwt 128 Replies latest jw friends

  • tec
    tec

    Is Good Friday not around the corner? Are you not acknowledging human sacrifice on that day? Isn't that the day you commemorate your god sacrificing his human son? Isn't that what the crucifix on the church wall is all about? Not sure what you are saying. But I'm

    sure the festivities will involve drinking the blood of this sacrifice.

    I think this is in acknowledgment of self-sacrifice. Of one man laying down his life for those he loves.

    It was Yaweh's will that his son be sacrificed. That was the plan. Without that human sacrifice, humans had no hope. So he sent a gift---a human sacrifice---to give humans hope. And yet what happens when these humans carry out his will and sacrifice the man that they had to sacrificed in order for them to be redeemed? He gets pissed off. Judas Iscariot was a friend to all humankind. Oh well. I guess that's what they mean by no good deed goes unpunished.

    That God can bring something good from something bad does NOT make the one who did the bad act, good.

    Peace,

    Tammy

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    But Tec---he did not bring good from bad. He made that sacrifice absolutely necessary. That was the plan all along. He wanted Jesus to die--even Jesus knew that. His plan was for humans to put his son to death, then he got mad when they did. What would have happened to that sacrifice if no one acted?? I've already talked to you about these things, and I know you have it worked out in your thinking. But it is what it is. Jesus was meant to be a sacrifice. His father did not bring good from bad as though he just worked with a bad situation! It was his intention all along.

    And Good Friday DOES commemorate this sacrifice---this death---of a human----and twist it any way you like, it is what it is. He died the death his father had planned for him. Not a bone broken---and all that.

    I really hate when I read the words exactly as written, and am told that's not what it says. It's not like this took a great deal of interpretation. It was written over and over and said the same thing. but somehow that's not really what it is saying. I have fairly good reading comprehension. The plan was always for Jesus to be put to death. So-called salvation was not simply an outworking of a bad situation----the bad situation was required for that salvation.

    Cognitive Dissonance---

  • mP
    mP

    The problem with Jephthah Daughters sacrifice story is the fact her father a high priest made the promise in the first place ?

    Shouldnt he as a high priest know this is wrong ?

    If it is wrong why did GOD accept it and give victory ?

    The truth is of course that the ban on human sacrifice is an edit from a much later stage and the story was never removed or edited sufficiently. At that stage in the past, the Hebrews did human sacrifices and they all knew the procedure.

    http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/jg/chapter_011.htm

    And it came about that when the sons of Am´mon did fight against Israel, the older men of Gil´e·ad immediately went to take Jeph´thah out of the land of Tob. 6 Then they said to Jeph´thah: “Do come and serve as our commander, and let us fight against the sons of Am´mon.”

    10 In turn the older men of Gil´e·ad said to Jeph´thah: “Let Jehovah prove to be the listener between us if the way we shall do is not according to your word.” 11 Consequently Jeph´thah went with the older men of Gil´e·ad and the people set him over them as head and commander. And Jeph´thah proceeded to speak all his words before Jehovah in Miz´pah.

  • tec
    tec

    But Tec---he did not bring good from bad. He made that sacrifice absolutely necessary. That was the plan all along. He wanted Jesus to die--even Jesus knew that. His plan was for humans to put his son to death, then he got mad when they did. What would have happened to that sacrifice if no one acted?? I've already talked to you about these things, and I know you have it worked out in your thinking. But it is what it is. Jesus was meant to be a sacrifice. His father did not bring good from bad as though he just worked with a bad situation! It was his intention all along.

    God did not need that sacrifice. We did.

    Knowing how something is going to happen does not mean that you wanted or planned it to happen that way; or that it was your intention all along. Knowing that Judas was going to betray His Son does not mean that Judas had no choice in the matter, nor does it mean that Judas did a good thing. Good might have come from it, but that does not make it a good thing.

    Peace,

    Tammy

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    God said we needed the sacrifice---it was his requirement. He found no other way to set things right---human sacrifice was required. Yes this was how things were planned. This was god's plan to sacrifice his son. He is god---perhaps he could have chosen another way---but he didn't. SOMEBODY was doomed though. He needed humans to sacrifice his son---to carry out his plan---but any who dared to carry out his plan were in trouble.

    This god required a human sacrifice, and he required humans to make it. They did. And now it is commemorated every year.

    NC

  • tec
    tec

    He needed humans to sacrifice his son---to carry out his plan---but any who dared to carry out his plan were in trouble.

    Untrue. Though I get that this is your understanding.

    He did not require humans to kill His Son. (other than that it had been prophecied... and we need to see prophecy happen in order to believe the one it came from... but as I said, knowing something is going to happen is not the same as making it happen) Humans could have turned and listened to Christ. He sent prophets to try and turn them around. He sent His son to do the same. Humans rejected that Son (not all). Humans put Him to death. WE needed it to happen the way that it happened. Do I know all the reasons why? No, I do not. I'm not even sure that Christ knew at the time, because He asked that it not happen to Him if it was possible... but otherwise for the will of His Father to be done. Christ trusted His Father, and HE is the image of God. I trust and see and love God, through Christ.

    People were going to kill him for the things He taught. Had he turned tail and not laid his life down, had he tried to take by force that which was already His, then we might not have the same message of Christ... faith/peace/love/mercy/forgiveness... as we have now.

    He forgave those who tortured him and killed him... and he asked that they be forgiven as well. That is one powerful e x ample to set for people to follow.

    I don't have all the answers, as you know. But you cannot see God if you cannot see Christ. People who understand that God is love can... but people who are listening to lies about God, can't see God unless they see the Truth of God first.

    Peace,

    Tammy

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    He came as the perfect sacrifice and put an end to all those animal sacrifices. Yes he taught---but it was the sacrifice that was needed. The romans were forgiven---Judas and the Pharisees etc were not. A lot of editing is needed to make this comfortable for believers---I should know. But it is what it is. Turn it the way it best fits your comfort level.

    NC

  • Sulla
    Sulla

    Yes Yahweh put an end to Canaanite child sacrifice by having Joshua's army slaughter all the children - bible god is a genius!

    Well, cofty, has it been your experience that great wickedness is often removed except with violence? American slavery wasn't ended through a strong argument, it was ended by a very grim fellow cutting a swath through Georgia and "making the south holler." Nazism wasn't ended by protests, but by psychos like Patton and the Russians, who raped their way through the eastern part of Germany. Your complaint reads more like somebody who is disappointed that God isn't Sky Wizzardy enough to get stuff accomplished except through whatever political structures happen to exist at the time.

    I'm genuinely not sure what sort of argument you are making whan you point out that Joshua wasn't converted, first, into Ghandi before attempting to end child sacrifice (among other goals) among the hyper-violen people of Caanan. What mechanism, exactly, were you hoping to see?

    We are living in the here and now Sulla. Now that science has answered some of the scary questions, and we ALL understand that human sacrifice really doesn't win wars or bring good harvests, we need to ask a basic question---which you keep ignoring.

    I doubt very much that we all understand this, NC. But that is a conversation for some other day. But let's not ignore your question.

    Today---this culture---does it make sense to defend a god that ordered genocide, slavery, subjection of woman, stonings and human sacrifice? This is not a question of whether it made sense thousands of years ago---this is a question of does it makes sense today? With the accumulated knowledge of a couple of millenia---does it make sense? Who would support it today? And why do they do so?

    Well, I'm not sure I've defended those actions. What I have tried to do is to contextualize them to some degree. And I have simply tried to point out that, in the Hobbesian nightmare that was the late bronze age middle east, progress is a relative concept -- the same way it is a relative concept today. Establishing 21st century Sweden seems not to have been an option for Joshua, even if he could conceptualize such a political order. And so the question is, given a brutal society that practices child sacrifice and a brutal society that does not, which one do you like better?

    The concept shouldn't be so tough to grasp: we do it all the time. Given a society that tolerates Jim Crow laws and excludes citizens from the ful protection of the law and a society that slaughters Jews by the million, which one do you like better? Is it somehow a cosmic failure that the US wasn't made perfect prior to the time it destroyed the German state? Of course not. So, where is your sense of proportion?

    Finally, Good Friday is not a celebration of death. It is a rememberance of the worst day in history, when we killed God. But you are not grasping the idea of it: He didn't need to die so much as we needed to kill him. You are working from a framework that asumes we are not profoundly broken, so the entire story can't make sense to you.

    Let me try to go at it from this direction and see if this helps. Here is the thing: in all those cultures where humans were sacrificed, in all those cultures where some human scapegoat was required to keep a population from tearing itself apart, whenever this sort of thing goes on, one thing is always true in the minds of the people doing it. That thing is this: the sacrifices and scapegoats are all guilty. None of the victims were innocent from the perspective of the people doing the killing.

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    So the morals of the bible are relative? One would think an all powerful god could do better than that. The morality alone proves that he was made in the image of those that worshipped him, not the other way around. They credited their relative morality to an all powerful god, who could make decisions no better than they could.

    NC

  • tec
    tec

    The romans were forgiven---Judas and the Pharisees etc were not

    You don't know that.

    Why would He have spent any time trying to correct them and get them to see if He did not want them to turn and be forgiven, and live? Anyone can be forgiven. What makes you think He was talking only about the romans when he asked his father to forgive them, for they know not what they do?

    Peace,

    Tammy

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