Blame the designer and not the product: God and the lame Free Will argument

by Terry 140 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Terry

  This is the one thing nobody is ever able to explain to me!

  If a genius designs something to operate in a specific way in order to obtain a precise outcome and it doesn't work---tell me again why we don't blame the genius designer/manufacturer??

  Oh--that FREE WILL maguffin!

  Total nonsense.

  Who would design something that could "decide" for itself to do harm? How is that in any stretch of imagination an asset rather than a liability???

  How does anyone suffer if God simply creates a person who always does good and is happy about doing so rather than a conflicted "decision maker" who all too frequently screws up causing death, injury and chaos?

  If the Living God has the power to do anything, change anything, destroy anything, create anything and yet finds Himself stymied by an inferior creature--haven't we got to change our description of God to read : Clueless?

  I always hear the very silly argument about "God didn't want robots". Oh, really? He just wants people to DECIDE TO BE robots, instead?

  Quick! Tell me this.

  You walk into a room in which stand two identical Robots.

  One Robot is programmed to always do the right thing at all times because of programming.

  The other Robot DECIDES ITSELF to do the right thing at all times on its own.

  Tell me how you would know the difference and what difference there would actually be??

  The Free Will argument is a flop.
• 

  N.drew

  Quick! Tell me this. What is the difference for all practical purposes in a robot that does all the right things all the time and a robot that itself DECIDES to all the right things all the time?

  It is not possible for earthly man to know what the right things are. It is the reason the human race needs someone in heaven directing. We cannot see clearly ahead. Heaven can.
• 

  tec

  What is the difference for all practical purposes in a robot that does all the right things all the time and a robot that itself DECIDES to all the right things all the time?

  One is the law written on paper (or tablets); and the other is the law written on the heart.

  There is meaning in the second, but not in the first. The second one is free. The first one is a slave. It must be limited in its thinking, and never be able to wonder what it would be like to do something else.

  Are you proud of your kids when they choose on their own to do something good? Would it mean as much if they had no choice in the matter?

  Peace,

  tammy
• 

  JeffT

  As a friend of mine said, free will is the power to do wrong. If you can only do right, you don't have free will. If God wanted something that could only do right, he could have stopped after he made insects. If you want to talk about robots read Issac Asimov's robot books. His robots are programmed to follow three basic rules: follow orders, don't harm yourself, never harm a person. Sounds simple except they are always screwing something up becuase the three laws conflict in some situation, or they didn't understand the correct application.

  Human beings aren't robots, and I sort of prefer it this way.
• 

  Terry

  One is the law written on paper (or tablets); and the other is the law written on the heart.

  Written is Written a distinction without a difference!

  There is meaning in the second, but not in the first.

  Why? The outcome is identical. I think you are pushing meaning into it that isn't really there.

  The second one is free. The first one is a slave.

  I loved apricot pie. If somebody commanded me on penalty of death to love apricot pie nothing would change whatsoever!

  It must be limited in its thinking, and never be able to wonder what it would be like to do something else.

  The benefit of wonder what it would be like to do wrong things, distort reality and hurt others is a freedom we can all do without!

  Are you proud of your kids when they choose on their own to do something good? Would it mean as much if they had no choice in the matter?

  When you tell your kids to get out of the street because a car is coming do you really want them to think it over before complying?
• 

  Terry

  It is not possible for earthly man to know what the right things are. It is the reason the human race needs someone in heaven directing. We cannot see clearly ahead. Heaven can.

  The human you describe is retarded!

  How, pray tell, did man put the Mars Rover on a speck of real estate 55 million KM away while the Earth was rotating at 24000 miles per hour? And yet, you say we cannot clearly see ahead? What kind of man are you describing?
• 

  tec

  When you tell your kids to get out of the street because a car is coming do you really want them to think it over before complying?

  See, you are talking about survival here and not morality. Correct and incorrect (as you stated elsewhere), rather than good or bad.

  If my son ran into the street to pull another kid out of danger, that is more along the lines of what I was talking about regarding being proud of your children for doing something good.

  (I don't know where 'thinking it over' comes into play?) Now it is programmed into them to do this (run into the street to pull another kid to safety), then it means nothing. If they choose to do this, then it becomes meaningful. Something you tell them that you are so proud of them for doing.

  peace,

  tammy
• 

  glenster

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will_in_theology#In_Christian_thought
• 

  journey-on

  Terry, imagine you are God (your description may vary). You have existed as pure consciousness in timelessness. You begin to "evolve". You know your "I Am" (you exist), but you develop desire to know yourself (I Am That I Am), all that is your potential.

  That desire alone changes your Consciousness. It creates a movement of sorts, a vibration that goes forth. We now know scientifically that everything in the universe is vibration, from the most subtle thought to the most dense Matter.---The cosmos came into existence by means of this going forth.

  Let's make the long story short and come to the place where Man enters the picture. Man...the image of God. An image is a reflection like that which you see in the mirror. It is there, but it is not separate from you. It is mere "clay" of sorts...inanimate except for how you choose to make it move. It is separate but not separate really.

  In order to truly experience the world of matter (which was created by I Am and the subsequent "vibration", I Am That I Am) Pure Divine Consciousness had to "animate" matter. Man was given the breath of Life, a spark of God, if you will. Now, you (God) can see, touch, smell, hear, taste, etc. the dense world of matter.

  Free Will was a gift. Think about it for a second. God desired "others" separate from Himself. Through the denseness of matter and man's five senses, God experiences His creation, and Man bebopped along for eons, evolving upon Earth, and living close to nature.

  Man reached an evolutionary crossroads. It was time and he was ready to receive The Gift of Free Will. The scenario was put into place, the Watcher/Temptor was assigned, and Man chose to discover who and what he is on his own. He still has the spark of God, but he also has free will. He can align himself with God (Love) through choosing to, or not.
• 

  Terry

  (I don't know where 'thinking it over' comes into play?) Now it is programmed into them to do this (run into the street to pull another kid to safety), then it means nothing. If they choose to do this, then it becomes meaningful. Something you tell them that you are so proud of them for doing.

  I just don't understand what you mean when you say "It means nothing"! Saving somebody means nothing UNLESS a particular thought is lodged in a person's consciousness? How can you say that? Alive is Alive and Dead is Dead. The meaning is something you IMPUTE.