Blame the designer and not the product: God and the lame Free Will argument

by Terry 140 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  journey-on

  1. Wrong (imo).

  It's evolution, Terry. Man evolves not only physically (within his species), imo, but spiritually, as well. They work hand in hand. Religion and holy books serve as guides showing where we have been and where we are now. Evolution takes those things and puts us on a path we will follow for our future as a race, a people, a species. Free Will is the ability to make planetary choices among many that will set humankind on a better (or not) path toward survival and growth...physically and spiritually. It makes our destiny our own. Since I believe in the flow of Divine Consciousness, it is my belief that if a critical mass is reached that will cause man to totally self-destruct, Divine Consciousness intervenes. A Christ will enter the picture and reset the vibration. I believe we each individually can choose to resonate with that flow or not. Our choices add to the planetary consciousness overall.

  Free Will allows the Divine One to experience "other".

  2. Wrong/Right (imo).

  What is inferior? Is a baby inferior to an adult? Is a star cluster inferior to a galaxy? As above, so below. Evolution is limitless and eternal.

  3. Wrong/Right (imo).

  God (not the skydaddy kind) initially created Man dependent, but with potential to reach a stage in his development to receive the gift of Free Will, upon which such time he would be removed from the "nursing" stage and be allowed to choose his evolutionary path based on individual and collective choices.

  So, the common way of interpreting Biblical "free will" does sound a lot like what Terry has laid out in his post.

  It is difficult for some people to see beyond themselves. Especially if you believe you are the center of the Universe and can't imagine that the world goes on without you. You are but a blink of the eye. However, IF you believe that that little spark of divinity, your soul, your true nature, can take all that you have gathered---all the choices you made in your brief life---all the pain, suffering, joy, love, achievements, learning, etc. and add it to the Greater Consciousness, then you are not so troubled.
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  james_woods

  Leaving "God" and "Religious Morality" out of the picture - there is still a valid question (speaking scientifically) as to whether "free will" is actually possible for the human brain.

  Neurologically speaking, on the smallest level, quantum physics comes into play - and that process is purely statistical (random).

  Setting aside "decision making" which is really just following behavioral rules by rote - and taking up things which humans decide purely on the spur of the moment - science cannot be sure which way such a decision will go. I.E. - do we go to the bank first, and then stop at the post office - if there is no compelling reason to do one or the other first?

  Is such a decision anything more than a toss of the quantum coin? Would it be the same if repeated a number of times?

  The implications of this situation even apply to such "big" decisions as whether or not to break some societal "law" - when the benefit-to-loss ratio of breaking the law becomes seemingly so equal that one or the other decision is not favorable by experience.

  Maybe "God" does really just "roll the dice" with human decision making - at the most fundamental level.
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  Knowsnothing

  I've often thought how Universal Sovereignty fits into this. This, combined with that, made God essentially set-up humanity for failure, just to prove a point.

  I've thought about it many times, and it really doesn't make sense. Say Adam 'n Eve didn't rebel. Eventually somebody would question his authority and rebel. In fact, Satan had already done so, albeit it in his heart and intentions. I'd say that for humanity, it would only be a matter of time before someone rebelled. The whole premise Universal Sovereignty rides on is that God demonstrates how failed 1.) autonomy (free-will as you have explained already so well) and 2.) human/Satanic rule apart from God are.

  Not only does he condemn humanity to leave a precedent for failure, he curses the very ground they depend on, and curses humanity to sin and death. Humans are set-up for failure from the beginning. We never stood a chance. We never really ever had a choice. And all of this for what? To prove a point. To prove he has the right to rule. Talk about capricious.
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  Terry

  It is time to raise the most important question of all: What is it that man's "will" is FREE of? God dictates what must be done and man dies if he does not comply. So, FREE FROM what, then?
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  journey-on

  The local food pantry offers FREE FOOD to the needy. What is that FOOD free of? I don't understand the question.
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  still thinking

  It is 'free of charge'...there is no price to pay for taking the food journey-on. Unlike the free will that God gave...there is a price to pay.
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  sizemik

  Free will is relative at best . . . if not, a complete fallacy.

  All decisions are shaped by prejudices and constraints . . . and come with consequences. Consequences are the "price tag" . . . anything that has a price tag aint free.
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  journey-on

  So, one is free to suffer his own consequences or reap his own rewards by the choices he/she makes. How is that not free will?
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  journey-on

  Never mind....I'm not thinking typical mainstream Bible interpretation which is where I think Terry wants to take this. I see Free Will differently just as I see God differently.
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  james_woods

  So, one is free to suffer his own consequences or reap his own rewards by the choices he/she makes. How is that not free will?

  It is not "free will" if it was not really decided in a completely free manner by the human. It is not really "free will" if the human is influenced by outside sources, or if the action is as the result of a purely random neurological process.