by Terry 140 Replies latest watchtower bible
God overrides people's freedom all over the OT and NT.
Hello robB and welcome to the forum. Your statement couldn't be any more true. The next logical step from there involves identifying the motive for the Bible's YHWH/Christ character to intervene in our lives. This requires study of the character's total story arc. Every divine intervention has a divine reason which is not always easily understood, but no way impossible to.
-Sab
simon17....
That is exactly the sentiment that religions base their doctrine on...obey or die. Some hide it better than others...but in the end the free will they offer is much the same as gods...it is an abuse of power. Which leads me to believe that only a human could have invented god...because humans made god in their image.
Everytime mankind comes to a crossroads in their spiritual evolution, Free Will tips the scales and we journey on down the path we (as a species) have chosen. Each individual (simple will) choice is part of the weightiness of the total.
According to the Bible, sentient beings were created with freewill and an inclination to give God glory. There's nothing to prevent intelligent lifeforms from trying to assume what rightly belongs to God. Satan initiated a power-struggle. The unfounded quest for power can destroy morality and the capacity for reason.
The founders of our government (United States) knew that power can be intoxicating and has the potential to corrupt. That's why the separation of powers (often used interchangeably with the trias politica principle) was established to prevent the abuse of power. God is incorruptible because he has the right to rule.
"You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being." Revelation 4:11
Great post, as Terry's usually are.
Billy the Ex-Bethelite:
Terry,
You're missing the most important part of the issue... the naked lady and the talking snake. Long story short--women shouldn't have free will. Isn't that the moral of Genesis?
LMAOL!
By the way, who should we suppose gave Satan (aka "The Talking Snake") free will? And, to what end?
Please can you explain what this means? - They are, after all, our fellow moral agents
Angels (Good or Bad) are moral agents like us. We are not God. We are self aware. We are capable of good and bad.
This also leads to circumcision. If god hates that little bit surely his knowledge of genetics could have been used to make this in built genetic feature of his people.
Wwhy didnt he just create man without it?
If the jews are his chosen people why didnt they simply have the dna to drop this bit?
The truth is the jews copied the idea from the Egyptians. In Egypt only rich and particularly the pharoah were circumsized. The Jews tried to put the image they were a nation of Kings, thus they needed to copy this Egyptianism.
Okay, let me back up and start over.
REBOOT.
1.The only thing Free Will gives inferior beings is the opportunity to screw things up.
2.God created humans deliberately inferior (to Himself).
3.God created humans dependant.
As a result of those three statements what you have is this conclusion:
4.God gives the inferior beings the Freedom to Choose for themselves while demanding they Choose to NOT choose.
Which leads me to this statement:
5.The "freedom to choose for yourself" is a pointless freedom... Freedom in name only... BECAUSE it is nullifed completely by surrendering to
an AUTHORITY. Why? AUTONOMY is the only thing distinguishing freedom from instinct.
Everybody (well, almost) has asumed I'm asserting that I don't believe there is Free Will. I AM NOT.
What am I asserting?
That IF the scriptures teach that a Living Autonomous God created inferior creatures....bestowed autonomy upon them (freedom to choose) and demanded they surrender that autonomy, then, THAT SAME GOD is completely responsible for the failures of humanity BECAUSE autonomy is only free when it is FREE FROM CONTROL.
In other words: the Bible's version of things is a ridiculous and illogical mess of half-baked contradiction.
This debate illustrates the difficulties that arise when we start from a wrong premise and then try to make it fit our viewpoint. If a being called God, planned and created all living things, then there are serious contradictions in the free will argument.
If we accept that humans have evolved, just alike all other living creatures, our world makes sense. All creatures continually make choices. Humans have developed consciousness to a level that allows us to make choises that go beyond just surviving.
Sometimes we exercise free will and sometimes we act out of necessity, making the most expedient and obvious choice. Sometimes we are able to exercise free will and sometimes we cannot. The results of those choices are seen throughout the world and form our history. I fail to see where a mythical God fits into such an obvious need driven pattern.
the Bible's version of things is a ridiculous and illogical mess of half-baked contradiction.
I believe the Bible was written after human will was spoiled. It is to explain the illogical mess and to provide a way out of half-bakedness. It is a reflection of what is and what is is crazy. Isn't it?
