Blame the designer and not the product: God and the lame Free Will argument

by Terry 140 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  journey-on

  What makes you think FREE Will is a "gift" when all it can do is get you in trouble??

  That just absolutely does not make sense to me. But, then again, I don't see "God" as a cruel judgemental entity, so I probably don't belong in this discussion at all.

  I see Free Will as an evolutionary stage when Divine Consciousness gave its creation a choice to find its own path and seek its own destiny. Since we all have a spark of DC, we can resonate with it and align our individual free will with it and follow a righteous path (the way of love). We don't know what the end result is, do we? We can only speculate. But, a life well-lived can only add to the betterment of humanity and its forward evolution.
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  Terry

  I see Free Will as an evolutionary stage when Divine Consciousness gave its creation a choice to find its own path and seek its own destiny.

  No no no no no no no no no..............................and, no!

  "..find its OWN path?" Surely you aren't talking about the bible version of events?? That is the very LAST thing God has allowed!

  God wants what God wants and will NEVER accept man's finding his OWN path!

  Consequently, all that "gift" of Free Will can do for man is give him the strong opportunity to DISOBEY and that means sin and that equals DEATH.

  All of this discussion is under the narrow setting of THE BIBLE'S VERSION, remember?
• 

  N.drew

  God wants what God wants and will NEVER accept man's finding his OWN path

  This is interesting. I think it is far from the truth. God did let man find his own path. It did not prove very good. There is suffering. It amazes me that people do not have the capacity to imagine that God suffers for us and with us.

  It is my opinion that it would have pleased God very much if humankind had found peace.

  How do you believe God has prevented humankind's success?
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  Terry

  If you leave room for another variable besides one of only two options, that is, that it has still not been proven that if although humans were created with free will, yet they chose to willingly use that free will for things which they were warned against and were told what the outcome of their actions would be, that they might just in fact learn a lesson "the hard way" so that instead of being true "robots" they would have real knowledge of what it is like to go against these warnings. If people were allowed to live for eternity, the short 80 year lifespan in which they were able to experiment and learn through experience why these free choices they made led to death and suffering would seem like a blink of an eye to someone who is living forever and ever.

  Your scenario of mankind getting to learn through failing is horrifyingly immoral for a perfectly Moral God.

  It is not only sadistic, it is scathingly analog and unimaginative. Should I let my child burn her hand so that she'll discover that fire can scar her for life?

  After all, exercising her "free will" is there for just that purpose: hurting herself through bad choices!

  Good Lord, man! All an all powerful righteous super deity had to do was create THE BEST OF ALL POSSIBLE WORLDS.

  Guess what, the bible god (and that is the only one I'm dealing with on this topic) FAILED to do that one simple thing.
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  Terry

  It amazes me that people do not have the capacity to imagine that God suffers for us and with us.

  What are you thinking?

  An all powerful, almighty living God does not HAVE TO allow any living thing to suffer because.......wait for it........wait for it.......He is smart enough to do things RIGHT the first time!

  The Bible God is a pathetically morbid failure of depressing magnitude who deserves our pity and contempt for being so unimaginative in the use of His superpowers!!!
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  N.drew

  He is smart enough to do things RIGHT the first time!

  Are you sure?

  Are you sure things aren't right?
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  tec

  It amazes me that people who are willing to fight (by whatever means - in battle or with words or in the law or politics), kill and die to ensure their freedom and that of future generations... that some of these same people call God out for granting the freedom that we hold so dear.

  peace,

  tammy
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  N.drew

  deserves our pity and contempt for being so unimaginative in the use of His superpowers!!!

  Uh, maybe you got that backwards.

  If we were created without the will to stray THEN the creation would have been unimaginative.
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  Oceangrinder

  If you had two Identical robots, one that was programmed "correctly", you would likely have little trouble with it. The other would appear, confused, lost and be constantly on the blink. There is a reson for such. Robots or Computers, like people rely totally on their programming, & stimulus, Experience. And unlike robots, humans feel pleasure and pain in a variety of forms. The human flaws are not programming errors built in, but instead are a pattern learned and repeated. Much like habits. It is through this that humans show some of their greatest strengths, such as adaptation. One would nearly need to assume that the human mind, the third and newest addition to our species was created through the nessecity of use.

  People oft become what they hate and fear most, because they need to learn to adapt. This IS our programming. The hardware kind. We are bad often for the same reasons that we are good. Save One. People fear the world in which they live, this is common sense. We also desire that someone assist and keep our families safe from cruel and evil psychos who become desparate to feel anything at all, this is in itself fantasy.

  Love would seem to be something that we wish to feel, but only when it is safe to do so. The "righteous" are led not by love but through fear. No matter how small or overlooked it has become. The world (whether you believe that god has given these governments right to rule or not), has always used fear to rule, because it is one of our most primative survival methods. Too much fear, and life becomes worthless.

  If god is anywhere near as great as he is claimed to be, then the very worst of us could be easily reconditioned, if you like. Some of us beg to be reconditioned, to rise above our mortal failings and give worth and value to the people around us. But If he's great, why didn't he just wipe their memories and start them over?

  It is still possible, that the garden of eden were just an experiment by a Pharoah or ET to see if people would overcome their natures if robbed of common stimulus. Which is to rely on their "Reptile" Brain.
• 

  bioflex

  @Faithfulbrother: 3. Assume that we were created by God, a spirit who is greater than us, but he decided to create us in his own image by giving us free will to choose what we do, just like him.

  Do you understand what it means by God creating us in His own image?

  This is where the whole fuss about free will stems from. The WT$ claims the image of God means our ability to discern good and evil but its not.

  It was man(male) who was created in the image and likeness of God, not woman,

  Genesis 1: 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth

  It was after God created man that he decided to create woman as a help for the man due to his lonliness. So man has the image of God not woman, and consider

  Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth: It is evident that the likeness of man to God was of appearance and not intellect.

  Now even though God created man to be intelligent, he was of no moral obligation whatsoever, he was free to do all that he wanted and when he wanted it. Man knew no shame, suffering, you name it.

  But when we observe God it is clear that principles and lawfulness engulfs all his creation, i mean just look at nature and its precise laws and principles. And that also applies to man.

  Man was to prove that he is capable of being lawful and obedient, there cant be a law abiding citizen when there is no law to follow. Mans only law was not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.