A new member of the thinking class

by Captain Obvious 62 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  outsmartthesystem

  Captain - Welcome! If your wife isn't ready to know the truth....then you can give her every fact in the world and she will still find a way to dismiss it. It sounds like she is not ready. If I were you I'd quit trying to discuss doctrine with her. Dr. Hassan is right. Discussing doctrine will do nothing but invoke the cult personality which will stop at nothing to defend the organization.

  My wife is exactly like yours. Raised as a witness but had no idea about the supposed 1919 selection by Christ...etc. Our wives have been taught to trust and believe in an authoritative structure in lieu of having a deep understanding of WHY they should give such implicit trust.

  My wife will admit that there is a lot evidence against 607BC. But when I ask her to provide something.....ANYthing in support of 607....she just gets angry and tells me she doesn't owe me an explanation. She knows there is a problem but isn't strong enough to face the truth.

  She knows the society has engaged in lies and deceit but passes it off as mere imperfection.

  Somehow....someway it still HAS to be God's organization so she shuts out any other thoughts.

  You've got a very tough situation on your hands. Keep in mind that if you finish your research and determine as I did....that you can not with a good conscience ever step inside a KH again......it will not go well. Eventually your wife will tell her family. The elders will want to meet with you to "encourage" you. Depending on what you tell the elders.....you could very well be on the chopping block. Even if you refuse to meet with them, your wife will lovingly "trust" them and tell them what you've told her if they start prying her for answers. What I am saying is that there is a chance that the elders or maybe even her parents may convince her that she is in "spiritual danger" living with you.

  Tread carefully
• 

  DesirousOfChange

  My suggestion would be instead to stick to original Watchtower publications and focus on one thing. Pick one old WT book and ask her to read through it with you -- maybe Russell's Studies in the Scriptures 3 with its clearly incorrect date system and all its "confirming" pyramid measurements, or Millions Now Living Will Never Die with its "proof" that the patriarchs would be resurrected in 1925.

  I respectfully disagree with the approach using OLD literature. I quoted from the 1974 WT where the most recent claim of being a "prophet" is made. My wife criticized how far back I had to go to find such a statement. "We all know there has been lots of New Light in the past 40 years!" Fortunately, that is just a year after my wife was baptized, so she supposedly believe it all at that time. I try to keep my WT references to the time period that we can remember, but since we are older than you guys, it gives me a wider selection.

  A prominent issue for me, as well as my wife, was having the inside knowledge on the extremely inappropriate conduct of a prominent elder, who kept his position and high privileges when Holy Spirit would have surely directed the BOE & CO to remove him/reprove him/DF him. We were drug though the whole drama of it all with the assurance that "Jehovah will see that these matters are brought to light. No one can fool the Holy Spirit." Guess what? Evidently, the Holy Spirit can be fooled or at least it is not aware of all the facts of matters that are prayerfully addressed by Elders & JCs. (I know, I know, was I really THAT STUPID?) But I really blindly believed that there was a higher level of integrity within the Org.

  But that was the first kink in the armor. If that doctrinal claim is false, then what about this one and this one and . . . . . . all of a sudden the scales dropped off about it all. I agree with the statements that discussing doctrines won't really work unless it's something that smacks you/her personally in the face. Your mind has to be already opened by something before you can start thinking critically about it all.

  Another thing for me was the failed promises. "Millions Now Living Will Never Die!" Failure. You won't get old in this system (May 22, 1969 WT) Failure!

  Good luck in the journey,

  Doc
• 

  Captain Obvious

  I think some of you have hit the nail on the head. The WT no longer shows up proofs, just cranks up the CULTure. It has become a social thing, people more concerned with their appearances to those in the hall.

  "I think the GB has lost their way" I like that. I think I might use that if you don't mind nugget!
• 

  Black Sheep

  Welcome to our nightmare.

  My wife sounds very much like yours. Telling them things just doesn't work. Don't give her any apostate reading material, she will just think evil of you for presenting her with Satan's tools. She will read that when she is ready, not when you are ready.

  You should have questions that she hasn't answered, the fewer the better, that you can bring up if she attacks your character for your non-belief. Choose your questions wisely. They must undermine the WT's claim to selection in 1919. Ask a question then shut up and let her talk her way into a hole then try and talk her way out of it. If she contradicts the WT, get the article and ask her to read it, or ask her to find an article to back up her statement. Every time she answers a question ..... pause ..... ask yourself ....... did she really answer the question I asked? If not, point out the diversion, then restate the question without rephrasing it.

  Never discuss doctrine. She doesn't give a s4!t what the Bible says, it has been superceded by the WT & the WT is God's channel. Any discussion will be painful for her and will endanger your relationship, so don't waste it on futile Bible Ping Pong.

  My wife and my family know I hate dishonesty and that I don't think that ignorance is an excuse. I was raised by JW's who trashed other religions for their supposed dishonesty and laughed at their members for their supposed ignorance, so they get reminded of that every time they try 'theocratic warfare' on me. Double standards and deception must be pointed out every time, preferably in the form of a question, so that they have to tell you why they tried to pull a swift one on you.

  Be gentle

  Chris
• 

  dontplaceliterature

  Capn'!

  WELCOME!

  I wish you the best with your wife. We are about the same age and I have been married for a while myself, with not much luck talking to my wife. Initially, she would talk to me...then she moved on to avoiding the topic altogether, and now she agrees that I may "have a point", but refuses to entertain the idea of leaving because of the social cost. So, even if you "get through" to her, she may never leave. I hope you have better luck than I have had. Still...I've not been at it long. My wife has only known about my thoughts for approximately a year.

  One of the best pieces of advice I received was to TAKE MY TIME. You've spent a long time in the cult, so don't just rush out wrecklessly if you think you have a legitimate opportunity to save anyone you love. Also, be sure you are actually convinced. If you aren't, you may go running back and become more locked into the cult than before.

  There is a great resource which hasn't been mentioned on the forum lately that is worth some exploration. A poster here, MadSweeny, has an internet radio show on UStream called "Cult Free Radio". He hasn't hosted anything lately that I'm aware of, but there are archived mp3 files on this website that you can go back and listen to: http://ex-jw.com/web-directory/cult-free-radio-archives-1-6

  Some of the guests on the show are also frequent posters here, and you will definitely enjoy listening to some of those files. So, go for it!

  Again, best wishes!

  -dpl
• 

  Shawn10538

  So glad you have had a revelation. Too bad it can't be appreciated by the ones you love that it is a good thing.

  Don't think that I missed the point, and this is a minor fact in your story. But technically this statement is wrong:

  "The cognitive dissonance is strong with this one." I know you were only making a little joke, but, either your wife either has no dissonance in her head at all, or she has a high tolerance for that dissonant feeling in her head. Either way it's not a good thing. But cognitive dissonance is what people who think feel when stuff doesn't add up or there are contradictions. What JWs have is a self maniputlating mechanism that responds to the dissonance in their heads by either mental acrobatics, or some other thought stopping mechanism like reading the Watchtower and saying Jehovah over and over or singing the Kingdom Songs, talking to elders, praying etc. when one feels the dissonant thoughts arising. It's people who, first of all, FEEL the dissonance in their heads, notice it, think more about it and then do something about it that end up "solving", if you will, the problem of dissonance by correcting the false or copntradictory thoughts or beliefs.

  So, it is all of us here on JWN that felt the most cognitive dissonance, not the JWs who stayed JWs after they either felt and did nothing, or never felt at all the cognitive dissonance. In other words, it's not the fact that one feels dissonance that makes the difference, it's what that person does about the dissonance that makes the difference.

  Cognitive dissonance is a good thing. It means your brain is working. It is your inborn sense of logic. It is proof that logic itself is every bit as much of a sense as eyesight or hearing or touch. If you see a two-by -four coming at you but you do nothing about it or say jehovah over and over, you are going to have a hell of a headache. If you feel cognitive dissonance and you don't do something about it then you are going to stay a JW. or if you DO something about it but that thing does not resolve the dissonance, like self indoctrination for example, you are also going to stay a JW. it's how you rect to it that makes the difference. Maybe ask your wife to concentrate and try to feel the dissonance that comes up in her head when you inform her that, for example, 1914 was a false prophecy. See what happens.

  Welcome by the way.
• 

  Shawn10538

  By the way, there are things one could get interested in that would help in the way of gently edging her out of the Watchtower. Here's a list:

  1. College

  2. Career

  3. Worldly friends

  4. Materialism

  5. extensive traveling

  6. learning a different language and attending a foreign language congregation (this one really helped me out. You miss a lot of spiritual food when you are listening to talks in Chinese!)

  7. Lonliness

  8. dsepression

  9. Congregation spats / being the victim of gossip or shunning or marking by other JWs

  10, hobbies

  11. worldly music

  12. worldly entertainment (rated R movies)

  13. literature / reading

  14. moving far away from family and friends

  ...
• 

  umadevi

  Welcome Captain!
• 

  thecrushed

  This thread is awesome. *bookmarked* forever The love and understanding coming out here is certianly amazing. At first I didn't know if I would feel safe here but I do and I think you sense it too Captian Obvious. Obviously right? lol I think the best piece of advice in this thread goes to linsc. *hugs* linsc

  She will unconsciously expect you to behave more 'worldly' and display less fruits of the spirit. So what you have to do is be the best damn husband! I'm sure you already are, but be more.More kind, loving, romance her, and don't ever become angry or short, do well beyond your share of the chores, have dinner ready for her coming in, you know what I mean. If she goes to the meeting without you, she's got the perfect man to come home to! In time you can 'win her without a word'.

  the above is such beautiful advice and is totally going to be my approach. If you love your wife as much as I love mine this approach will be the least traumatic for her and us as husbands. My chest feels tight as we speak because of the perpetual suspense about not knowing how my wife will react. I personally have a mix of ellation of mental and emotional freedom from guilt and worthlessness. I hope this will keep me going. On the other hand my heartache at the thought of losing the love of my life over a damn silly religious doctrine kills me inside. It physically hurts the anxiety is so intense. I guess this is part of the process. I will not fight it but continue to experience it without resistence because that will just cause more dissonance. I totally didn't mean to rymn there :P :D Please CO do me a favor and contact me when your feeling alone helpless or otherwise. We can encourage eachother in this trauma we both face. I'd love to get to know you better so please PM me.

  Dontplaceliterature said: One of the best pieces of advice I received was to TAKE MY TIME. You've spent a long time in the cult, so don't just rush out wrecklessly if you think you have a legitimate opportunity to save anyone you love. Also, be sure you are actually convinced. If you aren't, you may go running back and become more locked into the cult than before.

  This is totally right. My family has been in JW for 2 generations and I was a born-in till my apostate mother took me away from it for a while. I came back to in my preteens and then a few years in my teen years before I totally went nutz in the Rave Neohippie thing that was so prevelent in the late 90's. I did lots of drugs and did LSD which artificially broke down walls of the mind. I got into mysticism but never dealt with the indoctrination and dogma. I viewed myself as evil and satans menion and with this mindset you set yourself up for some very self distructive behavior while not dealing with any of the issues which helped start it all. I'm bipolar which doesn't help but if you mix JW and bipolar you get KAH RAAAZZZZZZY! I saw it happen to my mother.

  Because I never dealt with the issues I had deep inside my Dad eventually got me to study at a very low point in my life. He reluctantly let me into his home again saving me from my homelessness. He guilttripped me horribly till his worldy wife told him to stop being such a dick. My stepmother is a saint in my book and I hope she never buys into it. So of course I get super into the JW fantasy again.

  It's funny though because life really is a broken road just like that country song of the same name. If I hadn't come back I might actually have killed myself with Meth and Coke. I wouldn't have met the love of my life either. So now I've come full circle and getting out for the right reasons.

  I hope all this helps. It certainly helped me to verbalize it. It's part of the healing process.
• 

  Scott77

  welcome