by Terry 43 Replies latest social current
Funny how the shooting deaths of FIVE people in Oakland
has received about 1% of the media coverage of Treyvon's death.
Did the state attorney let the killer of those five people go
with no investigation, too?
If so, I see your point. If not, I don't.
Yes, Woods, I think there is evidence for a murder 2 conviction, and you are wrong that the "critical" point is that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman.
Not under the specific Florida self defense law. This is the basis of the Zimmerman claim of self-defense.
Depraved= morally corrupt, perverted- , Zimmerman doesn't seem to have been living a depraved and morally corrupt lifestyle when viewed in light of his timeline. He seems to be a responsible citizen trying to make sure his neighborhood was a safe place to live- since the police can't be everywhere all the time.
Moshe, "depraved heart" is a legal term of art that harkens from Old England; your common vernacular meaning simply doesn't apply. If you would like more information on the legal term, "depraved heart," I would suggest searching it on Google scholar.
In addition, it is clear that you didn't even bother to click on the link I provided to the Florida criminal defense attorney, because then you would undertstand that "depraved heart" murder is a codified part of Florida law. ; )
Not under the specific Florida's self defense law. This is the basis of the Zimmerman claim of self-defense.
Hhmm...let me answer this like an exam question; that might help you to understand why you are wrong.
Can Zimmerman claim self-defense?
Perhaps. There are are four common elements, or limitations, to the use of force in self-defense in all states. First, force may be used only against an unlawful aggressor. Second, the force must be strictly necessary. Third, the amound of force must be proportional to the force being threated, and finally, the attack must be imminent.
If the court finds that Zimmerman was guilty of murder two (depraved heart), then he can not raise the defense because Trayvon would be found to be a lawful aggressor.
If the court finds him not guilty of murder two, then Zimmerman will likely be able to establish element four; however, he may struggle with elements two and three ....continue the analysis of "strictly necessary" and "proportional force." However, Florida'sself -defense statute, which passed in 2005, includes a presumption of reasonableness. A person's use of deadly force in his home is presumed to be reasonable under specifically enumerated circumstances. Florida also enacted a stand your ground law, which allows the use of force, including deadly force, when reasonably used to defend against an attacker, but it applied only against an unlawful attacker, not a lawful attacker. The "presumption of reasonableness" effectuate a burden shift. The burden shift from Zimmerman to prove that his response was reasonable to the prosecutor to prove that his response was unreasonable. If the prosecutor is able to demonstrate that Zimmerman acted unreasonably in either his use of force or the proportionality of his force, he could still be convicted of a lesser crime.
Many people here are so worked up about "race" and "profiling" that they are forgetting a crucial point of evidence:
Treyvon attacked Zimmerman.
yea well if someone approaches me with a gun, I may have to "attack" them as well.
I don't care what frickin color either one of them is. You point a gun at someone they are going to react. And apprently to some people, defending yourself is a crime
Can Zimmerman claim self-defense?
Perhaps. There are are four common elements, or limitations, to the use of force in self-defense in all states. First, force may be used only against an unlawful aggressor. Second, the force must be strictly necessary. Third, the amound of force must be proportional to the force being threated, and finally, the attack must be imminent.
He has a very reasonably good case for these conditions, given a good defense lawyer. First, it is unlawful to pound somebody's head into a concrete sidewalk. Second, it would be stricktly necessary if you were being pounded senseless. Third, having your skull crushed is just ast lethal as a bullet. Finally, the attack was not only imminent, but was also actually ongoing and in progress.
However, I agree that he will probably be convicted (or more likely plead out to) some lesser charge because of the obviously biased media attention.
yea well if someone approaches me with a gun, I may have to "attack" them as well.
I don't care what frickin color either one of them is. You point a gun at someone they are going to react. And apprently to some people, defending yourself is a crime
The defendants story is that he had the gun concealed when the attack was made, and he only pulled it out after being in danger of mortal injury.
Ironically, if he HAD pulled the gun first, Treyvon might still be alive.
or if he minded his own business, it would have been Zimmerman who?
You're not reading James.
Notice that we don't even GET to those elements UNLESS Zimmerman is NOT convicted of murder 2.
Flow Chart
Can Zimmerman raise self defense?
Perhaps.
1) Is he convicted of murder 2?
2 ) If yes, the analysis ends here; he cannot raise the defense because Trayvon is a "lawful" aggressor.
3 ) If no, possibly. Continue the analysis and examine the four self-defense elements, including the burden-shifting "stand your ground" presumption.
First, it is unlawful to pound somebody's head into a concrete sidewalk.
Incorrect. If you are a lawful aggressor, it is legal. If you are an unlawful aggressor, it might be illegal.
However, I agree that he will probably be convicted (or more likely plead out to) some lesser charge because of the obviously biased media attention.
Nah. If he's convicted, it will be because a Florida jury examined the evidence and determined he was guilty. If he is smart, he will plead to a lesser offense because a moderately good prosecutor has enough evidence to convict him of murder 2. And by all accounts, he has a really bad-ass female prosecutor on his butt. ; )
I have NO DOUBT, that before she filed those charges, the prosecutor made her defend her position against a TEAM of prosecutors. She had to make it past a phalanx of prosecutor attacking every angle of this case before she was able to put the department's credibility on the line. That's just how prosecutor's offices work. Because the prosecutor has a duty to uphold justice; they are NOT to just seek to win a case. And this is a hot-potato case that no elected official (prosecutor) would want to screw-up.
If treyvon attacked zimmerman first (and I don't know that he did), why did he do it? If zimmerman goes completely free, then that it an admission that he did absolutely nothing wrong, and getting shot was Treyvon's own damn fault and he had it coming. I don't think Zimmerman is some ragin racist, but he was absolutely in the wrong for taking a gun and pursuing some random kid. If I knew some guy was following me, and I was un-armed, and I felt confident enough that he intended me harm, and I didn't know if he was armed or not, and was he bigger than me, I may very well try to pre-emptively attack him, because I'm fucked if he attacks first. Saying that this was all treyvon's fault and zimmerman doesn't deserve to be blamed at all for Treyvon's death isn't anymore balanced than saying Zimmerman is a black hating racist.
Even with the timeline, doing anything more than calling the police is stupid and reckless action, and doesn't deserve to be called "self defense." Following people around at night, carrying a gun, is always a bad idea.
