Christian Apologists - Please Watch This and Tell Us Why it is wrong?

by cantleave 834 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  cantleave

  I was referring to my Post 9110 of 9118, a rebuttal of your post 52.
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  JonathanH

  And if the debate is on einstein's views (not that they give weight to one side or the other)

  Here are some einstein quotes on religion and god.

  The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.
  
  Letter to philosopher Eric Gutkind, January 3, 1954

  I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings.
  
  - Albert Einstein, responding to Rabbi Herbert Goldstein's question "Do you believe in God?" quoted in: Has Science Found God?, by Victor J Stenger

  It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
  
  - Albert Einstein, letter to an atheist (1954), quoted in Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas & Banesh Hoffman

  I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being.
  
  - Albert Einstein to Guy H. Raner Jr., Sept. 28, 1949, quoted by Michael R. Gilmore in Skeptic magazine, Vol. 5, No. 2

  (A note on this last one. Remember that in Einstein's Day existentialists like Camu and Sartre were the face of atheism, not the modern face like Jerry Coyne and Richard Dawkins who are far less concerned with the angst of a universe without gods)

  It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere.... Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.
  
  - Albert Einstein, "Religion and Science," New York Times Magazine, November 9, 1930

  I cannot conceive of a personal God who would directly influence the actions of individuals, or would directly sit in judgment on creatures of his own creation. I cannot do this in spite of the fact that mechanistic causality has, to a certain extent, been placed in doubt by modern science. My religiosity consists in a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we, with our weak and transitory understanding, can comprehend of reality. Morality is of the highest importance -- but for us, not for God.
  
  - Albert Einstein, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas & Banesh Hoffman

  If you want to understand what einstein thought of "god" go read about Spinozan Deism. Spinoza in his day was considered an atheist, but in modern times is considered a deist.
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  tootired2care
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  ziddina

  Excellent post, Jonathan H...

  As was the point that appeal to authority is a very weak argument.
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  cantleave

  Game, Set, and Match to Sabastious?

  Nah - not even a point scored yet......
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  JonathanH

  Yes, Tootired, that is what I am saying. If Einstein had a god, it was a naturalistic god that most of us just call the universe. Einstein liked to wax poetic on life, but that is not to be confused with his very staunch views on religion on gods.
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  sabastious

  You're yammering on about Albert Einstein and claiming that HE came up with "one of the key equations of all science", but you're TOTALLY FORGETTING ABOUT ISAAC NEWTON, who was DEEPLY religious.

  There's another nickle. I didn't "forget" about Newton, I kept him out of the conversation for a reason. Einstein is much closer to our time than Newton so I don't bother with the perspective gap and frankly I think his historical perspective is too narrow. Einstien's deism on the other hand sets the stage for a theistic argument. When it's all said and done we might be looking back at Einstein as a Christ like figure and Hilter being his Devil counterpart. The fact that Einstein could not give up completely on God, which is a common atheist complaint of believers, maybe means that he had a special connection with God, maybe without even fully realizing it.

  AND Isaac Newton came up with discoveries that set the stage for men such as Albert Einstein.

  I am well aware of that fact which is why Einstein's belief in God is a different argument than Newton's for more reasons than just that.

  Your attempts to use Einstein's somewhat antiquated spiritual concepts - if in fact he DID have such - as a means to coerce ME into "believing" in your fractured and confused version of "god/gods", is tantamount to attempting to push me [as an American] into believing in SLAVERY because Thomas Jefferson and George Washington believed in slavery [as founders of America...]

  Nickle. I never intended to coerce you into believing anything. I accept nonbelief as warrented, but not the best path for every soul on the planet. My entire point, and I do mean my entire point, is that a God theory does indeed exist and sits legitimately beside all the other theories. It's not irrational to believe in a personal God. There is a case for GOd of which believers should be allowed to attach themselves to without being called intellectually dishonest. However, if a believer sticks to their guns on an archaic specific such as the Bible is the inerrant word of God, they are being intellectually dishonest. Willful ignorance should be highly discouraged in society, but not the idea of a personal God.

  -Sab
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  tootired2care

  A militant atheist is any atheist that actively works toward a world without God.

  This is very confusing to me. Do you mean political decision making without God? If that is the case i'm definitely of the 'militant' nature. Why should we follow Israel down a rabbit hole with the Muslim world?

  I would Really like an answer to this question.

  P.S.
  If you want to worship god in your living room, or church whos going to stop you? Freedom should always afford you that.
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  sabastious

  Agnosticism is the Absence of Knowledge of Gods: Although sometimes used metaphorically to denote a lack of commitment with respect to any given issue, agnosticism strictly taken means not claiming to know for sure if any gods exist. This is the definition for agnosticism in standard, unabridged dictionaries. Because of the use for "lack of commitment" other areas, many attribute that back to the question of gods' existence as well and conclude that agnostics are "uncommitted" to any position on whether any gods exist. This is a mistake.

  This definition contradicts with:

  “Yes, you can call it that,” Einstein replied calmly. “Try and penetrate with our limited means the secrets of nature and you will find that, behind all the discernible laws and connections, there remains something subtle, intangible and inexplicable. Veneration for this force beyond anything that we can comprehend is my religion. To that extent I am, in fact, religious.”

  In the quote Einstein is asserting a claim, with the word WILL, that a force exists beyond the natural world and that he venerates that force. This is NOT an agnostic thinking process, but rather a deistic thinking process. It may well be that when Einstein called himself an agnostic that he was referring to an ideal that goes beyond what we call agnosticism today. Since agnosticism was not as common in Einstein's day as it is today we can say that modern agnosticism, which is simply the lack of knowledge of a God, does not fully encompass the belief in God that Einstein indeed had.

  -Sab
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  tootired2care

  Sab - we're going in circles, we've already proven his beliefs come nowhere close to your ideas of god so let it go! It's just noise at this point, and doesn't add weight to your argument.

  force =/ god