Please sign the petition to remove tax free status from religious cults that shun!

by garbonzo 99 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Band on the Run

  Perhaps it boils down to a single factor. Some of us know basic civics. Many Americans do not. Personally, when I read such gross misconceptions about our const'n, I wonder why there aren't tests for voting rights that apply to all Americans. There is a fundamental and very troubling misunderstanding of our most basic freedoms. I swore an oath to defend the const'n with my life.

  Let me freely confess that until law school and even further research, I thought separation of church and state was absolute. The pendulum has swung towards favoring more religion, not less. I invite people to visit neutral sites, such as the Supreme Court blog, the National Constitution Center's site, and others to learn what the const'n says and how it is interpreted.

  No one here likes that the WT gets a free ride with law and order, infrastructure, emergency services, roads, etc. Why won't you believe the basic correct understanding of the const'n. I also invite you to see a lawyer for a free consultation concerning this. In an ideal world, grade school children would know the most basic principles. I'm not blaming anyone for not knowing what they were never taught.

  Peruse the New York Times, Washington Post, CNN, Wall St. Journal for discussions of the First Amendment and tax exemption. Speak with a legislative aid in your congressperson's office. Write to your Senator. Write to the chair of the Judiciary committees in House and Senate. Also, write to the taxation committees. This is a dead issue.

  Attack my content. When you personally attack me, it makes you look very bad. Refute my facts. Do you I have to post one million law review articles?
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  NewChapter

  LOL I'm a sensationalist and possibly a WT apologist in disguise? Wel now this has just become fun. Okay---go for it. Let the government choose favorite religions (won't happen anyway). Let them pressure what is preached from the pulpit. I do believe that reaching for such disregards some basic constitutional principals---but I've seen these principals being routinely violated as those with religious agendas keep getting footholds and laws passed on state and local levels.

  Our goal is the same in that we want to help people see the truth about the WT. We want to prevent people from joining the cult and support them as they come out. Some of us just realize that their existence is one of the irritations of living in a free society. Some of us don't want the government acting as thought police and see this as the other side of the WT coin.

  Thank you for the personal attacks as I tried to discuss the ramifications of a measure like this. Have fun.

  NC
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  james_woods

  james_woods: The government cannot (and should not) pick and choose over which religions to give tax exemptions to.

  I agree, but in this case, the government isn't picking and choosing, they are simply letting the most Pharasaical religions cut their own throats. I don't see any danger in that whatsoever.

  As New Chapter stated - the danger is placing the government as the judge of which religions are "Pharasaical".

  The political and constitutional difficulties with this are immense.

  This issue is a dead horse.
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  botchtowersociety

  But why following every steps of the Petitionists and harrassing, accusing, opposing them? Is this all about popularity contest and territorial? Or Are you Watchtower apologists or even their spies? What's going on?

  Many posters agree with your goals but do not agree with the means you seek to implement them (and have given sound reasons why). It's as simple as that.
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  blindnomore

  Let me help you with basic civic principles of the US.

  What is the supreme law of the land? the Constitution.

  What does the Constitution do? sets up the government, defines the government, protect basic rights of Americans.

  The idea of self-government is in the first three words of the Constitution. What are these words? "We the People," the Constitution states that the people set up the government, The government works for the people and protects the rights of people. In the United States, the power to govern comes from the pwople. This is called "popular sovereignty."

  What do we call the first ten amendments to the constitution? the Bill of Rights

  What is one right from the First amendment? speech, religion, assembly, press, petition the government,.....

  What are three rights in the Declaration of Independence? life, liverty, pursuit of happiness.

  What is freedom of religion? You can practice any religion, or not practice a religion. the Pilgrims were the first group that came to America seeking religious freedom. Protecting the people from the religious persecutionwas the very reason why freedom of religion was included in the Bill of Rights.

  What is the "rule of law"? No one(no person or group including religious leaders) is above the law. Government must obey the law. The rule of law helps to make sure that government protects all people equally and does not wiolate the rights of certain people.

  Who makes federal laws? congress-Senate and dHouse of Representatives

  What are the two parts of the US Congress? the Senate and House

  Who does a US Senator represent? all people of the state

  What is the highest court in the United States? the Supreme Court. The court can decide that a state law or action conflicts with federal law or with the US Constitution. If this happenes, the state law becomes invalid.

  The Supreme Court case ruling Marbury v. Madison established this power, known as " judicial review." (ie. the Court ruled out polygamy practice of Mormon.)

  The Supreme Court also rules on cases about significant social and public policy issues that affect all Americans. The Supreme Court ruled on the court case Brown v. the Board of Education of Topeka, which ended racial segregation in school.

  What are some ways that Americans can participate in their democracy? vote, join a political party, join a civic group, give an elected official your opinion on an issue, call Senators and Representatives, publicly support or oppose an issue or policy, wirte to a newspaper,....

  What did Susan B. Anthony do?(I will leave answers of this one for you. I am sure you eductated people should know the answeres. If not do some research about her. It will be good for you).

  In my previous post I gave 4 choices of charactors you may fit into. You answered it yourself. Not me. In fact I did not single out any one of you but you volunterred and let all of us know who you are!

  Robert and others, thank you for your hard work on others behalf!
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  Band on the Run

  This thread also raises the issue of what is the role of government. For once, I am siding with conversatives. Government does not exist to correct every wrong in society. The Witnesses never promised eternal fellowship no matter how you trounced the rules. Their policy is clear. If you did not like it, you should have run.

  The Const'n does not enable government. Rather, it constrains government. If you would glance at the Federalist Papers, perhaps you would understand more. Sic Temper made an a.... of himself. Join in.

  You will see that both progressives and conservatives are united in stating your scheme is not const'l.
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  blindnomore

  Do some readings, research. and think before you spell out.
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  james_woods

  Band on The Run - I just really do not know how you, myself, BTS, and New Chapter could have explained it any better.

  The government CANNOT SELECTIVELY REMOVE TAX EXEMPT STATUS FROM CERTAIN RELIGIONS BECAUSE IT DOES NOT LIKE THEIR DOCTRINES.

  This means that if it wants to remove religious tax exempt status - it has to do so for ALL RELIGIONS.

  Removing tax exempt status from ALL RELIGIONS (while it MIGHT be constitutional) is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE politically.

  Thus, the petition drive is a complete non-starter. People are free to petition for the return of prohibition if they want, but it does not mean that it is going to happen.
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  Band on the Run

  Attack my content. I implore you to do so. These nasty attacks show you are ignorant. This thread reveals some sick personalities. No one is arguing with your basic premise about tax exemption. People with education in the matter point out that it is NOT the way you state.

  The First Amendment does not give you personal rights to worship anything. They reside with you. These rights preexisted the Const'n. The First Amendment bars government, not individuals. You have an elementary school knowledge of American rights. The preamble is not that important. We the people never directly ratified the Const'n. Our legislatures directed ratifying conventions in every state. Delegates were chosen (presumably by the state general assembly, not the people). We don't have direct democracy. Rather, we elect representatives, who are not beholden to us. My Senator and Congressperson frequently vote against my interests.

  You are merely having temper tantrums now b/c you expected acclimation. No one is against you. The consensus is you do not how this government is structured and what rights entail.
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  blindnomore

  You guys are missing a whole point!

  Have any of you participated in Ceders' JW Global Survey? If so, what was the reason? Did you actually believe that the GB will look into it and do something about it? If not why did you waste your energy? It make me smile over the thought of the GB being confronted by the pile of handreds of papers that contains the informations that they are not any more important than anyone walk on the street. I think that's worth for me.

  I guarantee you it will be the US Government over the GB that will even acknowledge your petition.

  We informed the government what's going on with the Watchtower who fought and claimed their rghts to all the way to the Supreme Court numerously, for example, government recognizing Consciences Objectors and yet they themsleves have been refused to acknowledge the same basic rights of Consciences Objectors and persecute them in worse way.

  If any government officials read the petitions and are aware of it then I think we accomplish our mission. The matter is not in our hands afterwards. Neither you nor myself have to decide who the government will tax or how the Court interpret the law and its relationship on human basic rights over the rights of religion.

  You must also understand why the Supreme Court ruled out the practice of Polygamy and the federal government enforced it as a federal law. the Government did not persecute the church. The Supreme Court defines that Mormons have right to believepolygamy as religious belief which constitued by the Constitution and yet the members have no right to practice it since it violats very core basic civil rights and civil marrage law.

  I do not have any problem with the ruling and never ran into single American who consider it as religious persecution.

  And another thing, please read the topic of the thread: 'Please sign the petition to remove tax free status from religious cults....'

  Simply walk away, if you wil, if it's not your cup of tea.

  Edit: on no single american who consider it as religious persecution. Except some polygamists. ie: Warren Jeff, a leader of FLDS, who was one of the america's 10 most wanted by FBI for child sexual abuse. He is in the prison cell for the rest of his life.