Please sign the petition to remove tax free status from religious cults that shun!

by garbonzo 99 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  ABibleStudent

  Jefft - OK, I'm going back on my statement about not posting on these threads. You keep telling me to ask a question, so here you go:

  Why do you have such an irrationally high emotional investment in this petition? Some of us have attempted to open a dialogue about the issues it raises and you act like we want to shoot your puppy. What's your agenda? What is at stake for you personally? Why can't you set aside whatever is going on in your head for three minutes to think about the points mentioned by others?

  Hi JeffT, I also have asked you questions that you ignor and did not answer in the thread http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/members/politics/225023/3/URGENT-Please-Sign-White-House-Petition-to-Protect-Americans-from-Dangerous-Cults-Modify-USC-Title-26-c2a7-501-Tax-Exemption-Requirements .

  Unlike you, I will attempt to answer your questions:

  1. Your first question seems very subjective and confrontational. I care about other people and do not want to see government burdened more with providing social services for JWs and members of other dangerous cults. I cannot understand why you and at least two other posters are behaving the way you are, and in my opinion started using confrontation words/sentances first (i.e.," you act like we want to shoot your puppy").
  2. My agenda is to help empower victims of dangerous cults to get out of organizations, if they want to, without losing contact with their friends and family. I prefer less government to more government, but sometimes government needs to tweek laws that were enacted to address unforseen issues such as laws that created USC Title 26 § 501.
  3. I have nothing to gain, in fact I have more to lose by promoting this petition.
  4. This question also seems very confrontational. Were you an elder? I have spent way more than 3 minutes trying to understand points that you, New Chapter, Band on the Run, james_woods, and botchtowersociety have made. I have asked questions which you, JeffT, and Band on the Run have not answered yet. I have also written responses that included links that interested people could read to better understand my position. Since neither you, New Chapter, Band on the Run, james_woods, and botchtowersociety are Supreme Court justices nor public officials, your opinions do not reflect what the Supreme Court or what public officials would do.

  Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

  Robert

  P.S. - I really do appreciate that JeffT and New Chapter continue to post on this thread, because it keeps it at the top of the active list of threads.
• 

  ABibleStudent

  Hi ProdigalSon, you have a PM.

  Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

  Robert
• 

  blindnomore

  BTTT
• 

  ABibleStudent

  Thanks a million to the 80 people who have signed the White House petition "Protecting Americans from Dangerous Cults: Modify USC Title 26 § 501 Tax Exemption Requirements.

  I want to thank Steven Unthank for encouraging me to use Facebook to promote the White House petition, and to thank ProdigalSon on JWN and Aida on JWSF for linking to the petition on their Facebook accounts. I want to thank everyone who has posted on this thread and the following two threads:

  • http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/members/politics/225023/4/URGENT-Please-Sign-White-House-Petition-to-Protect-Americans-from-Dangerous-Cults-Modify-USC-Title-26-c2a7-501-Tax-Exemption-Requirements
  • http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/scandals/225068/1/New-US-Government-Petition-re-Cults-and-Tax-Exemptions

  Also, I specifically want to thank JWN members JeffT, Band on the Run, New Chapter, james_woods, and botchtowersociety for your comments on this and/or the aforementioned threads. I may not like what you wrote in your posts, but you are free to write your opinions and I would defend your right. You 5 more than anyone else gave me information that I used to create the questions in the FAQ section and the motivation to create a Facebook page.

  I published my first Facebook page today. The page is a work in progress and I would appreciate any comments about how to improve the message on the page. The page briefly describes the petition, where to go for additional information, and FAQ type questions to help people to overcome their objections to sign the petition. The link to the Facebook page is http://www.facebook.com/pages/Protecting-Americans-from-Dangerous-Cults/264002310365016 .

  Even though it is unlikely that 25,000 people will sign this petition before May 26, 2012, I want to be prepared to do a better job of promoting a similar White House petition the following day.

  Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

  Robert
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  james_woods

  Robert, I think your motivation is good - but I was just pointing out why I think this effort is a futile one.

  Why not expand the effort into a petition to tax all religious organizations the same as any other business?
• 

  144001

  Why not expand the effort into a petition to tax all religious organizations the same as any other business?

  This would also be unconstitutional, so a petition in this regard would have no effect. It will take a Constitutional Amendment to effect this long-overdue change in policy.
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  james_woods

  This would also be unconstitutional, so a petition in this regard would have no effect. It will take a Constitutional Amendment to effect this long-overdue change in policy.

  While I fail to see why taxing religions is unconstitutional -

  If taxing ALL religions is unconstitutional, then how on earth do you think it would be constitutional to tax SOME religions, based selectively on their doctrines???
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  Band on the Run

  I'm not certain how many threads are running now. Perhaps my posts are disappearing along the way. What is your aim with your petition? If five million people sign it, what is your goal? You need a Senator or Congressperson willing to introduce a bill, votes, and enough political heft to move any bill forward to the floor of each House. Next, you need to shepherd the bill through a conference committee.

  Congress does not make law. Congress enacts laws. Without the president's signature or a veto override, the bill is not a law. It needs a presidential signature. Next, you must fight off legal challenges to such a bill. The First Amendment is taken very seriously. Remember the Mayflower Pilgrims perilous journey to the new world to have religious freedom.

  We don't have ballot initiatives on the federal level.

  I truly don't mean to be cruel but it boggles my mind. Go for the gusto.
• 

  garbonzo

  If taxing ALL religions is unconstitutional, then how on earth do you think it would be constitutional to tax SOME religions, based selectively on their doctrines???

  Notice he said "also"; so 144001 thinks this petition is unconstitutional, "also". (I don't know if it is or not.)

  NewChapter states:

  Extreme cases, such as when there is physical danger or violence, the govt. has an interest in stepping in a keeping society safe.

  Dun, da-da, DUN! This is EXACTLY what NEEDS to happen in the case of JWs! This is the main reason why this cult is dangerous to begin with.

  Are you forgetting the blood policy? How many lives were lost because of this policy? No matter how much or how little, lives have been lost. How is this any different than mass murder cults, or satanic cults? A leadership is directing it's members to effectively kill themselves by obeying the "infallible" leadership.

  What the government is saying by allowing this dangerous doctrine is that anyone can create their own religion and say it is fine to refuse anything life giving to our children. So maybe someone may argue, "who cares what a person does to their own body, or what choices they make themselves?", but parents are doing this to their children, and it's wrong. If it didn't matter what parents do to their children, then why is school mandatory? Why is pedophilia illegal for all (including parents)? Why is child abuse illegal?

  Parents do not have the right for absolute choice in what they do to their children and what their children does. This is shown by the law.

  So why can't I create a religion and tell parents not to giving life giving food to their children? How is it any different?

  So can anyone tell me why the JWs are allowed to have this dangerous policy still????

  I am wondering, and I really hope this is the case, that maybe the reason they are still allowed is because it hasn't been effectively attacked by a good lawyer, yet? Maybe no one wants to take the risk? Maybe they aren't experienced enough, so they decide not to chance it? Maybe they believe it is too much of a grey area?

  But most of us ex-JWs know how wrong it is and how illegal it should be. I see no reason how a judge wouldn't take action on this if this case was presented effectively!

  Anyone know why? I just don't get it.
• 

  Band on the Run

  New Chapter had the idea but not the precise formula. Criminal laws of general applicability with no legislative intent to discriminate against particular religions have been held valid. Polygamy is the classic case but most expect the Court to overrule its prior decision b/c views of marriage and privacy have changed drastically. It is a very old decision now.

  A more recent one (last few years) involved Native Americans who used peyote for countless centuries in religious ceremonies. The United States government added peyote to a list of banned drugs. No one was enforcing the law against Native Americans. I believe the Bush administration decided to enforce it. The Native Americans sued under the First Amendment. The Supreme Court held there was no First Amendment violation. The law applied to everyone. Further, there was no record that Native Americans as a group were targeted.

  You have no First Amendment right to scream "fire" in a crowded theatre. The Witnesses are not doing anything that is imminently harmful. No one is murdered. You don't like them. I hate them. My hatred does not make them not a religion protected by the First Amendment. Charlie Manson would qualify as dangerous. He had no First Amendment right to murder people. Warren Jeffs had no First Amendment right to rape young girls. The Witnesses are not remotely in this category.

  If you think the Witnesses are powerful and need to be constrained by govt, wait till you meet the Roman Catholic Church and the Jewish religion defending the Witnesses' rights. You are free to walk away.

  Not that explaining law, history, politcal ideas has had any impact so far.

  No judge could keep his/her position if they ruled against the Witnesses based on the content of their beliefs. This is not Red China nor the Soviet Union. People came here (I toured a replica of the Mayflower when I was a kid) from all over the world to have religous liberty. Government and the overall community does not exist to enforce your personal belief. This petition is more unAmerican than HUAC was.

  Have you ever thought why there aren't laws against the Witnesses and why the GB are not doing life sentences or being executed?