She's Leaving Home..Bye Bye..

by Englishman 38 Replies latest jw friends

TR

Richard,
I think sex needs to be discussed prior to marriage, and spending a lot of time around your prospective mate should give you an idea of the prospective mates habits, and how physically attracted they are to you.
I don't agree that a man hides his violence until he gets married, unless they've known each other a very short time. Women generally know their man is an asshole or not before they get married. Also, a man generally knows if his wife is prudish or a bitch before they get married.
TR
I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his own way.
--Robert Frost, 1935
Skeptic

TR, I respect you, but I strongly disagree. If your moral choice works for you great. But don't just others, because everyone's situation is different. The issue of the morality of marriage is a real sore point with me.
It's just my opinion that there's very little in the way of commitment if people are shacking up instead of in a committed relationship such as marriage.
Considering that there is a 50% divorce rate, there is very little commitment in a marriage as well.
How does a piece of paper make a woman a whore or a wife? And if the couple divorces, then maybe she was a whore all along? Maybe a whore with a piece of paper, eh?
What about the men in this? Why do people always call the woman a whore, but only when spoken to about it, they say, well,yeah the man is a "whore" too.
The 1970's sitcom "Good Times" made a valid point. A divorced/widowed man was sleeping with lots of women. His daughter was sleeping with lots of men. They got into an argument about her dating practices, and daddy called her a slut. Her reply? "If I am a slut, what are you?" Good point.
I was in a committed marriage. It sucked. After 18 years of pain for both of us, we finally woke up and decided to part. Now, I'd rather know who I am marrying and how suitable we are before the wedding day.
We do not require people to join an employer for life, based on a decision we make when we are twenty. Yet, we expect people to make a life-binding decision when we pick the one person who will make our life bliss or a living hell. How stupid. Would you think a person was bad for test driving a car before buying it? Yet, we are expected to pick our sexual partner, our soulmate for life without a test drive?
Richard, who wonders if TR has really thought about this one
TR

Richard,
We do not require people to join an employer for life, based on a decision we make when we are twenty.
That's why getting married so young is not a good idea. How many people are mature enough to get married at 20?
I agree that half of marriages fail. But could that be improved if people were willing to wait before commiting to marriage? Maybe spend more time getting to know their partner? Spend a little more time maturing maybe?
People will make mistakes. "Love" is not enough. People need to choose their mates wisely. In our culture, where we have the freedom to choose who we want to get married to, it behooves us to make a wise and informed choice. Kinda like religion. I made THAT mistake, I admit.
TR
I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his own way.
--Robert Frost, 1935
Skeptic

I think sex needs to be discussed prior to marriage, and spending a lot of time around your prospective mate should give you an idea of the prospective mates habits, and how physically attracted they are to you.
From this I take it that you are against premarital sex?
Discussing sex is not the same as having sex...only the actual having of sex over a long period of time will determine if a couple is compatible. Would you go to a surgeon who up to this point only discussed surgery?
Before marriage, my first wife had told me that sex was not a big priority for her, and I told her it was for me. Yes, based on that conversation I should have ran for the hills. But, at the time, she had let me know that she had slept with many boyfriends, many times, and I thought her drive as normal and her talk about having sex was just good JW talk...you know, a sister letting me know how spiritual she was.
For the first part of our marriage, we often would have sex every day, by mutual choice. Then, when our first son was concieved, she told me she wanted to have no more sex. During the birth of our first son, she had that procedure where the doctor cuts her to help the baby come out. Afterwards, she claimed that the stitches caused great pain during intercourse and asked me to not have intercourse. What was I to do, force myself on her? Thinking she had a medical problem, I did what I thought any good husband would do, I honored her request for no sex. Ten years later, she confessed that she had lied all along. And of course, I still got no sex for another 7 or 8 years. When our marriage was near the end of our 17th year, she wanted sex twice a month. Funny, no pain when she wanted it....
My reward for this was to be branded as an adulterer even though I have never cheated on her in any way. As a result, two of my sons dispise me.
So, I do not think it is unreasonable, nor immoral for me to insist on living with Robin before marriage.
Another side point...my ex lived with her boyfriend for about a year and a half before marrying him. Hopefully, if she has not been deceptive, this has given him enough time to know if sex twice a month or less is suitable for him.
I am not anti-marriage. I am anti-stupidity that can ruin your life.
I don't agree that a man hides his violence until he gets married, unless they've known each other a very short time. Women generally know their man is an asshole or not before they get married. Also, a man generally knows if his wife is prudish or a bitch before they get married.
Possibly. You would be surprised how long they can hide it. Abusive men and women are very nice if they think you might leave if they are jerks. Yet, once they feel you will not leave, they begin the abuse.
Richard
JeffT

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.
My oldest two are 26 and 25, a boy and a girl. The truth is, E-man, you don't actually have anything to say about what they do. Mulan nailed it. Make sure they know you love them, make sure they know they are always welcome at home, make sure they know they can ask your advice (and then ignore if they choose). Beyond that you're done.
They are going to make their own way in the world. They are going to make some really stupid mistakes, and if you've been the good parent I think you have been, they will come back and say "you were right about that." And when it is all said and done, they will have had lives of their own.
Skeptic

That's why getting married so young is not a good idea. How many people are mature enough to get married at 20?
TR, are you against premaritial sex, one-night stands, etc.? Are you against divorce? On what grounds is divorce OK?
I agree that half of marriages fail. But could that be improved if people were willing to wait before commiting to marriage? Maybe spend more time getting to know their partner? Spend a little more time maturing maybe?
That's what living together does...it allows a couple to get to know eachother to see if they would make good marriage mates. And it does it on the most practical level. Living together is the closest a couple can get to marriage. Let's face it, the only difference is a piece of paper, and a legal status.
Yes, it would be good if people waited until they were 30 or 40 to marry. But how do we handle Mr. Sex Drive in the meanwhile? Since you referred to the woman as an unpaid whore, I take it that your objection is mainly to the sexual part of the union. And since you had to be asked before saying the man was loose as well, I take it that you really do not mind if the guys gets nookie before marriage, just not from someone he is living with.
People will make mistakes. "Love" is not enough. People need to choose their mates wisely. In our culture, where we have the freedom to choose who we want to get married to, it behooves us to make a wise and informed choice. Kinda like religion. I made THAT mistake, I admit.
Yes, and some cultures require parental consent to marry. This has advantages.
TR, you and I were in a religion that had moral rules that were to be applied in all cases, no matter how poorly the rules fit the situation. Don't make that mistake again.
Richard
target

When my neighbor's daughter announced her engagement to a fellow her parent's didn't much care for, the mom INSISTED that they live together for six months before getting married. It had the desired results. After living with him for a few months, the daughter saw what the mother saw and that was the end of that. Now she is happily married to someone else and didn't live with him first. Smart mom.
Target
Englishman

Thanks to everyone for all the helpful replies. I’ve discussed this tonight with Her Ladyship, and we’ve agreed that we will tell our son that this will always be his home whenever he needs us.
Secondly, we have also agreed to prime Middle son that just as he changed when he became a student, so will his girlfriend have other things on her mind besides him, and that he will need to be prepared for this and that the relationship will need to adapt.
I recall when HL went to uni after we had been married for 17 years that I actually felt quite threatened for a while. In hindsight it would have been best if I had expressed my misgivings rather than trying to be all heroic and noble.
Englishman.
Bring on the dancing girls!
Marilyn

Eman, it sounds like you really don't like this girl much? She sounds like she has a strangle hold on your son and I don't think she is going to change much after she starts uni. My mother in law didn't much like me and it could be said that I had a strangle hold on my husband after I met him at age 15. We got married when I was 19 and he was 20 and we are still married 30 yrs later. We are the best of friends. Even though I dragged him away from his studies and from his family, into dubdom, somehow we've managed to have a great life. I still don't get on with his mother - and I can't forget how shitty she used to be to me. Even though I probably deserved it - females end up with the whip hand for the most part. That's a reality check. Try real hard to find something you like about this girl just in case she's around for the rest of your life.
Marilyn

She's Leaving Home..Bye Bye..

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