by Fernando 187 Replies latest jw friends
" The group in the middle (of the above two groups) are described as the (spiritually) lost or unrighteous in scripture."
Oh wow, so two groups out of three are screwed. A lot of judgmentalism flying around me thinks.
*backing out of another thread designed for nothing more than a lot of poop throwing...boring!*
I hope this thread doesn't turn into poop throwing as I feel Fernando has raised a valid issue that is worth exploring. Also Guys please name posters you are quoting as it is quite hard to follow the discussion otherwise.
A more valid topic would have been to ask why some atheists and believers tend to be abusive. OP just sounds offensive and only meant to rile folks up. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
Also Guys please name posters you are quoting as it is quite hard to follow the discussion otherwise.
I second that s+g...I'm lost...
the emphasis on reason and rationality alone, devoid of all the feelings associated with what makes us feeling people for example, does not do it for me s&g
It doesn't do it for anybody. You have invented a straw-man stereotype that doesn't exist.
soft + gentle. Yes I do find believers are victims for the following reasons:
1 - When they self identify as such (e.g. 'slave' ). Many believers are taught to see themselves as subserviant ,and in need of something additional to make them whole (they are an imperfect person ), they are taught that certain natural thoughts and actions are sin and certain moral actions are wrong. They are taught im many cases a spiritual caste system where the woman is under the headship of a male and the family is under the influence of the clergy / guru / especially pious. They are taught to give of their resources in order to show obedience or love. They are bound to revere books or ideas of questionable worth or that are downright immoral and to subject their natural morality to an alien meme normally from an ancient superstitious culture.
2 - When they are given a worldview that is opposed to self criticism and the cost of 'doubt' questions are social censure, eternal punishment, damnation or some other punishment. A victim is in some way disempowered and the loss of freedom to think and question is one of faith / religion / beliefs primay goals and or side effects. The worldview is normally enforced upon a child or presented to the vulnerable (there are a few who come to religion with no unfulfilled needs, without coercion, love bombing or childhood inculcation and while I've never met such a person almost every single believer is convinced they would have always been <insert personal variety and degree of faith> regardless of culture or circumstance.)
3 - Believers have to sacrifice all things at the altar of faith (a recent poster confirmed that she is being forced to sacrifice real physical paradigms to accomodate her spiritual belief.) A worldview that will not co-exist with reality and requires a re-assessment of factual, objective evidence that is contrary to the observed phenomenon and does not contain the foundational truth that IT must change according to the facts is ultimately nothing more than a mental cage.
4 - Faith has a fundamental aversion to verifiable evidence. It makes a virtue from only seeking information from sources that support it. Since belief in magic is inherantly wrong all evidence detracts from faith ( thus thunder is no longer taken as proof of Norse gods nor the sun as evidence of an Egyptian sky deity - more recently christianity is adapting to having creation quashed by evolutionary theory .) Faith is thus antithetical to rational, reasoned, ammoral knowledge aquisition. It has been at the forefront of bigotry, stupidity , rigid ceremonial performance and factual buffoonery. Adherants aquiese to leasing their brains to demonstrably incorrect and fantastical mythology.
:D
cofty I wholeheartedly agree with you that reason and rationality devoid of feeling doesn't do it for anybody. However I did not invent this emphasis on reason and rationality. A long line of thinkers did (Plato, aristotle, descartes etc). Indeed we would not have the scientific method if early thinkers had not set out on this trajectory - to give pre-eminence to reason whilst simultaneously demoting feeling that is. But when reason is used as a foundation for all other truths and posited as foundational for all reality then we run into the problem of depicting faith in the way qcmbr does above.
qcmbr - I can't help but think that you are venting a diatribe against faith. Taking your first point: Seeing oneself as subservient and as not whole is not suggestive of being a victim. I would agree that in a JW type religion when people are silenced and taken advantage of together with being rendered subservient and imperfect that they are victimised. But on the other hand if a person is acknowledging that they are not stand alone entities and that they are in receipt of and in need of external influences then they are not that far away from an atheist who acknowledges that he owes his good fortune to living in a secular society under a government that provides him with securities that enable him to be independent and to realise his potential. (This is not meant to deny that the believer has something more than materiality or that the athiest likewise has something more than materiality).
edit: qcmbr I will come back to your other points when I have a little more time
@Fernando
What about lying xians, and im not limiting that comment to JWs, i really mean all xians. They somehow think that xian is a synonym for goodness and kindness and so on. These same people then deny whats written in black and white both in history books and the Bible the worst crimes. Im talking abiout slavery , greed, sexual violence, murder rape and more all of which are vindicated and ordered by God and set in law on many occassions. Even that bastian which xians love to champion when everything in the OT is a disgrace they would rather forget, Jesus Christ was no better. He was rude and more to women and was lets face it a racist pig. He didnt preach nor did he try to help save non jews. Hes fellowers were also known to carry weapons and yet he was blind to this very obvious fact until it was too late ? If you saw Jesus and his mates like Peter walking around with swords you would call the police or run away and yet you pretend it never happened or worse still lie about it.
Soft and Gentle said this: Somehow the emphasis on reason and rationality alone, devoid of all the feelings associated with what makes us feeling people for example, does not do it for me. (I've only read the opening post so far)
Then Soft and Gentle said this: but pls don't complain if we question your stereotypes, NC.
And then New Chapter said this: ROFLMFAO!!!
s+f - there is a very different idea behind 'together we are stronger' or 'we are more than the sum of our individual contribution' than that proposed by xian faith (a notional god is not stronger because he is working with you nor is his ultimateness enhanced by your individual contribution.) The xian god requires that you need saving, he requires that you be imperfect, he requires that this life be only a prelude to a punish/reward ->worship scenario that you are a bit part player in ( the role of devil(advocate), saviour, judge, jury and recorder are already taken.) The xian god requires there to be sheep and goats, wheat and chaff, that which is burnt and that which is saved and so on. Xianity cannot countenance the idea that god is superfluous to mankinds needs, it requires a dependency relationship where we utterly depend upon god even for our very breath. I'm not certain which parts of this are different from abused victim and tyrannical abuser relationships. Aquiese to xian god and you may still get a raw deal and die horribly but at least you get eternity to be thankful and worshipful for your merciful god who allowed you to suffer such pain, rebel against xian god and you may still get a raw deal and die horribly but now you will be eternally punished as well. What's not to like?
p.s. I am venting against faith - it is a terrible concept that has allowed mankind to stutter from one wasted life to another believing in whatever woo the current priest decided would best support his personal views. We've tried hugging trees, sacrificing virgins, offering milk to idols, throwing money in wells, burning witches, praying, giving money to priests, chopping off nob ends, putting hankies on women's heads, eating wafers and drinking wine, babbling on a floor, checking our electrical resistence, imbibing collodial silver, wearing crosses, blowing ourselves up, flicking water around, reading fairytales as fact, shaving our heads, wearing amulets, burning candles, going to war, enslaving heathens, torturing sinners, wearing cinctures, chanting mantras, tantric sex, putting pins in dollies, munching endangered species, flagelation and so on. At some point the experiment ceases and we note down the result. Evidence for God = 0.
