by King Solomon 54 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Never left the witnesses, but I have moved away, significantly, from an evangelical mindset.
One of the first bricks to go, so to speak, is the idea that God needed defending. I mean, God is God after all; pretty all-powerful and all that, well able to defend "himself". What followed after that was a return to the joy of reading ... anything. I figured if I had been a Christian that long, surely my faith could withstand new ideas. Otherwise, what kind of mewling, weakling Christian was I?
excuse me butting in king solomon but I am finding your opening post very hard to digest. You have so many things going on -so many assumptions - it is hard to know where to start.
let me take your views on religion and faith and the piling up of shaky assumptions leading to a shaky tower. I tend to subscribe to the idea that many people who become witnessess and/or take up religion have gotten there through concluding that society, the world around them, politics etc have a shaky tower of assumptions that is horribly unstable. It is then by means of religion that the disciplinary structures of society, of government etc are critiqued. In fact this has been part of the role of religion throughout history.
Next your opinions on how Jehovahs witnesses connect discipline with spanking infants. On the one hand present day thinking amongst most Jehovahs witnesses is that spanking be a last resort and many witnesses have adjusted how they discipline. But on the other hand meetings are definitely viewed as occasions for using last resort tactics so I think I can offer an assumption that needs to be questioned and then given much more ambiguous status than that they are a provision from Jehovah and all age groups must attend. Meetings display the neglectful attitude of the FDS and reflect their indiscreet self interest. I think the ministry being one of jehovhas provisions and that it is therefore binding on all should also fall into this category of being contested and then given more ambiguous status so that parents are not made to feel that they to use last resort tactics.
edit: as a parent I believe in discipline but don't feel that spanking ought to be part of it even as a last resort.
@King Solomon
Nah I don't have the tendency to cave to social pressure in most regards. I refuse to be disfellowshipped again so I have to front but I think that's somewhat different.
My wife is chronicly ill and when I was reaching out I had people hint/suggest the course I outlined. My father in law in particular. His wife suffers from many ills and he leaves her to deal with it by herself constantly. She just needs to feel loved and worthwhile. But no....This past weekend she was in so much pain and isn't allowed pain meds at this time until the source is diagnosed. He works about 70 hrs a week and Saturday's are his only time he can go in field service. So his words to me over a beer Friday were that the brothers need to see him out and she will be ok. She is not ok. She is not needy or clingy or whatever. It would just be a basic human decency and when we go visit her while they are off JWing she is so appreciative and relieved. So I was kinda venting against him.
Cyberjesus said:
you said:
It's true: if you are reading this, you accepted certain assumptions in the past, or NEED to do so.
its funny that a couple of paragraphs later you "assumed" this:
Yeah, I spotted my mistake (which ironicially occurred when I went back to clean up some other grammatical errors after I posted the thread), but it was after the 30 min timeout, so no fixing it, at that point.
Obviously it should read something like this:
It's true: if you are reading this, you held and/or accepted certain invalid assumptions in the past, and need to re-evaluate everything you THINK you know, or else risk repeating the
same mistake!
Fact is, I didn't know if it was too ambitious when I wrote it, as there are many moving parts. Thanks to Oracle for being the brave "guinea pig" (as it were) to help get it rolling, and flesh it out; I had a rough idea of where it should go, but obviously other participants shape where it ends up going.
Speaking of which, 4 other posters clearly were able to overlook the mistake and comprehend the point I was trying to communicate, at least enough to constructively engage in the point of the thread (ie in JW parlance, they weren't "stumbled" by the mistake).
So what about you, cyberjesus?
With that clarification, do you have anything to share as YOUR example of pre-existing fallacious mental tendencies you have have held, that may explain why you were once in a cult? Or are you just gleaning JWN to look for nit-picking opportunities? :)
Before I was a JW, I really did believe the world was an awful place. Things were changing quickly, and making me dizzy. The Wall in Berlin seemed to have come down overnight (which ordinarily would be considered a GOOD thing, but it felt so big and out of control to me, that I knew huge changes were on the horizon, and the strength and speed of those changes made me feel anxious). Then we went to the first war with Iraq. And I had my own struggles. So when JW's came along and said it was all a sign of the end---I really thought they were on to something. I reasoned if the Wall could fall so quickly, and we could end up in war equally as fast---then things really were primed for some very fast change very soon.
But the world actually isn't a 'worse' place---but how do you measure such? Life expectancies increased, many diseases curable-preventable--more open societies, not less, and still we have a lot of work to do---but civil rights, education, medicine.
Anyway, because of my negative view, and my anxiety over rapidly changing world events (even good ones) made me particularly suseptible to their teachings.
NC
SBF said:
Doubt everything, including this.
Yeah, good advice.
Of course, that's a conclusion, and not the actual experiences that allowed you to come to that conclusion.
So rephrasing that idea, we can probably assume that a healthy dose of skepticism WAS lacking in those who are now reading this thread, for if they HAD exercised a bit of due diligence and caution before joining a cult, they would have researched (TTATT, The Truth About The Truth) and wouldn't be here on JWN, AFTER the fact. :)
(Who knows: maybe some reading ARE currently researching after they were encountered by a JW, but before they got deeply involved? If so, good for them!)
jgnat said:
One of the first bricks to go, so to speak, is the idea that God needed defending.
Thanks for participating! :)
Oh, yeah: that's a very deeply-rooted instinct, that need to defend "our Father", a member of our familia.
It's such a strong instinct in some that most people hold the belief without even realizing they do!! And it sets them up for manipulation (like JWs) who rely on that instinct to bait the hook.
In fact, it's a particularly insidious thinking pattern for those who may have not have had the ability to express the instinct with their own earthly father, and hence they transfer the instinct normally given an outlet with a flesh-and-blood mortal, onto a spiritual God Father figure (Catholics refer to a God head).
Yup, that's a biggie....
I was born 3 years ago. I lived in a fantasy world for 38 years. Now not only do i question what i believe but also why do it or if its really my belief or somebody elses.
And about the nitpicking... Sorry but the OP was just irresistible! But if dont nitpick on you.... It gets boring
Soft and Gentle said:
excuse me butting in king solomon but I am finding your opening post very hard to digest. You have so many things going on -so many assumptions - it is hard to know where to start.
It's getting fleshed out by other thread participants as we speak, but you got the idea when you added this:
I tend to subscribe to the idea that many people who become witnessess and/or take up religion have gotten there through concluding that society, the world around them, politics etc have a shaky tower of assumptions that is horribly unstable. It is then by means of religion that the disciplinary structures of society, of government etc are critiqued. In fact this has been part of the role of religion throughout history.
Yup, that one is a HUGE factor.
The JW message of doom and gloom and "things are getting soooo much worse nowadays!" attracts fatalists who are despondent, see no hope for the future, and feel that drastic, Earth-changing interventions are going to be required to set things right.
Thus anyone who has such tendencies towards pessimism, nihilism, and "glass is half-empty" thinking are prone to fall for the JW message.
(BTW, their "we're in the last days" message is rather narcissistic: imagine the good luck of being at the right place and at the right time, to be eyewitnesses to the most important event in history, EVER, and it's going down right before OUR eyes! You get to enjoy a front-row seat to watch Armageddon!
That's another erroneous thinking tendency that they exploit, appealing to an individual's narcissism, their sense of self-importance.)
Next your opinions on how Jehovahs witnesses connect discipline with spanking infants. On the one hand present day thinking amongst most Jehovahs witnesses is that spanking be a last resort and many witnesses have adjusted how they discipline.
While it's important to discuss any individual points raised, the thread has alot of 'moving parts' and is ambitious enough, as it is, and will quickly grow incredibly unwieldly if we discuss the details here. So perhaps those types of discussions should be raised in their own spin-off threads?
Chappy said:
Anyway, because of my negative view, and my anxiety over rapidly changing world events (even good ones) made me particularly suseptible to their teachings.
Yeah, nice try but sorry, NC: Soft n Gentle already beat you to that one... :)
NC, can you think of another?
