1975 ???

by Scorpion 91 Replies latest jw friends

  • JT
    JT

    TR

    ++++
    I do understand though. You are being put to the test for your religion, and you have failed that test miserably, so far. So what you do is lash out. It's all you can do since you don't have the info to back up what you say or refute what others say.
    ++++++

    well put indeed in fact what we are seeing is very common among jw who were dfed for NON_Dogma issues

    but at least she is here - in time she will address issues or realize she needs to leave-

    i hope she takes the opportunity to learn- she stated that she is ticked off with the LOCAL ELDERS

    when i person like her can't see no further than some bunch of local front men

    she has truly missed the point for the elders co and do and even branch committee guys are no more than COGS in a wheel

    the real power is in the hands of a few old men and thier

  • JT
    JT

    TR

    ++++
    I do understand though. You are being put to the test for your religion, and you have failed that test miserably, so far. So what you do is lash out. It's all you can do since you don't have the info to back up what you say or refute what others say.
    ++++++

    well put indeed in fact what we are seeing is very common among jw who were dfed for NON_Dogma issues

    but at least she is here - in time she will address issues or realize she needs to leave-

    i hope she takes the opportunity to learn- she stated that she is ticked off with the LOCAL ELDERS

    when i person like her can't see no further than some bunch of local front men

    she has truly missed the point for the elders co and do and even branch committee guys are no more than COGS in a wheel

    the real power is in the hands of a few old men and thier

  • thinker
    thinker

    Smartgirlpw,
    You said:

    The society has never claimed to be infalliable.


    I disagree:
    THE PROPHETS OF GOD
    1919. Watch Tower. April 1, 1919. Is not the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society the ONE AND ONLY channel which the Lord has used in dispensing his truth continually since the beginning of the harvest period?

    According to Watch Tower, who is the "one and only channel" through which God speaks?

    1931. Watch Tower. November 1, 1931. (p. 327) Watch Tower recognizes the truth as belonging to Jehovah, and not to any creature. The Watch Tower is not the instrument of any man or set of men. NO MAN'S OPINION IS EXPRESSED IN THE WATCH TOWER.

    According to this statement, who is speaking through Watch Tower? Are the Watch Tower prophecies from Jehovah or from man? Are the writings of Watch Tower the OPINION OF MAN?

    1939. Watch Tower April 15, 1939. (p. 125) We acknowledge as the visible organization of Jehovah on earth, the Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society, and recognize the Society as the Channel or instrument through which Jehovah and Christ Jesus give instruction and meat in due season to the household of faith.

    According to this, who is God's instrument through whom he speaks? Who is giving instruction through Watch Tower? If it is from Jehovah or Jesus, can it ever be wrong?

    1942. Watch Tower. December 15, 1942. (p. 376) Christ Jesus has caused the understanding of the prophetic dramas and pictures to be CLEAR AND SET FORTH in the WATCH TOWER publications.

    From where does Watch Tower get its understanding of the Bible prophecies? Can Jesus Christ give a false understanding of prophecy?

    1943. Watch Tower March 15, 1943. (p. 127). This is not giving any credit to the magazine's publishers, but to the great Author of the Bible with its truth and prophecies, and WHO NOW INTERPRETS ITS PROPHECIES. He is that who makes possible the material that is published in the columns of this magazine.

    Who does Watch Tower say is God's channel for instruction and prophecy? According to Watch Tower, where can we read God's prophecies?

    1943. Watch Tower July 1, 1943. (p. 202). Jehovah God is therefore the only Supreme Court of interpretation of His inspired word... To such remnant of faithful servants of Jehovah God Christ Jesus has entrusted all "his goods", or earthly interests of the Kingdom. This does not signify that the faithful remnant or society of Jehovah's anointed witnesses are an earthly tribunal of interpretation, delegated to interpret the Scriptures and its prophecies. No; Christ Jesus the King has not entrusted that office to them. THE SUPREME COURT STILL INTERPRETS, thank God; and Christ Jesus, the Court's official mouthpiece of interpretation, reserves to himself that office as head of Jehovah's "faithful and wise servant" class. HE MERELY USES THE "SERVANT" CLASS TO PUBLISH THE INTERPRETATION AFTER THE SUPREME COURT BY CHRIST JESUS REVEALS IT.

    According to this, is it Watch Tower or Jesus Christ who interprets God's word? Who publishes what Jesus Christ reveals? Can Jesus give a false prophecy?

    1943. In 1943 Watch Tower President Nathan H. Knorr and Vice President Frederick Franz gave the following testimony under oath in a court of law in the case of Olin Moyle v. WTB&TS. (p.866) Olin Moyle was a member of the Watch Tower legal staff who sued Watchtower for libel. (Olin Moyle won his case.)

    The testimony of Vice President Frederick Franz given under oath....

    Q. At any rate, Jehovah God is now the editor of the paper is that right? F. Franz: He is today the editor of the paper.

    Q. How long has he been editor of the paper? F. Franz: Since its inception he has been guiding it.

    Q. Even before 1931? F. Franz: Yes sir.

    The testimony of President Nathan Knorr given under oath.

    Q. But you don't make any such statement, that you are subject to correction in your Watch Tower papers do you? N. Knorr: Not that I recall.

    Q. In fact, it set forth directly as God's Word, isn't it? N. Knorr: Yes, as his word.

    Q. Without any qualifications whatsoever? N. Knorr: That is right.

    Who did Knorr and Franz say was the editor of the Watch Tower paper? Whose word did they say was contained in the Watch Tower? According to president Knorr, has Watch Tower ever had to correct a prophecy?

    1967. Watch Tower. October 1, 1967 (p. 587) The Bible is an organizational book and belongs to the Christian congregation as an organization, not to individuals, REGARDLESS OF HOW SINCERELY THEY MAY BELIEVE THAT THEY CAN INTERPRET THE BIBLE."

    According to Watch Tower, who alone can interpret the Bible? Can any individual Christian interpret the Bible without Watch Tower literature?

    1972. Watch Tower March 15, 1972. There is a real need today for someone to speak as a true representative of God. Is there someone who can bring the truth of God's Word to the people, letting them know what is ahead and what they can do for safety and survival?" The Watch Tower article then tells of how Ezekiel was commissioned by God to be his messenger and prophet and then continues... "Who was willing to undertake this monumental task as Jehovah's "servant"? Was there anyone to whom Jehovah's heavenly "chariot" could roll up and whom it could confront? More accurately, was there ANY GROUP on whom Jehovah would be willing to bestow the commission TO SPEAK AS A "PROPHET" IN HIS NAME, as was done toward Ezekiel back there in 613 B.C.E.? It is important to every individual on earth to identify the GROUP that JEHOVAH HAS COMMISSIONED as his "servant" or messenger. We must recognize and understand the warning that he brings. We need to take action on the warning to safeguard our lives, for they are in a danger as grave as that of the lives of Jerusalem's citizens as that city neared destruction. For this reason forthcoming issues of The Watch Tower will further discuss the identity and work of Jehovah's commissioned messenger as revealed in His vision to Ezekiel.

    1972. Watch Tower April 1, 1972. A third way of coming to know Jehovah God is through his representatives. In ancient time he sent prophets as his special messengers. While these men foretold things to come, they also served the people by telling them of God's will for them at that time, often also warning them of dangers and calamities. So does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come? This question can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet? God had a prophet to warn them. THIS "PROPHET" WAS NOT ONE MAN, BUT WAS A BODY OF MEN AND WOMEN. IT WAS THE SMALL GROUP OF FOOTSTEP FOLLOWERS OF JESUS CHRIST, KNOWN AT THAT TIME AS INTERNATIONAL BIBLE STUDENTS. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian witnesses. They are still preaching a warning, and have been joined and assisted in their commissioned work by hundreds of thousands of persons who have listened to their message with belief. OF COURSE, IT IS EASY TO SAY THAT THIS GROUP ACTS AS A "PROPHET" OF GOD. IT IS ANOTHER THING TO PROVE IT. THE ONLY WAY THAT THIS CAN BE DONE IS TO REVIEW THE RECORD. WHAT DOES IT SHOW?" Jehovah's Witnesses today make their declaration of the good news of the Kingdom UNDER ANGELIC DIRECTION AND SUPPORT. AND SINCE NO WORD OR WORK OF JEHOVAH CAN FAIL, FOR HE IS GOD ALMIGHTY, the nations will see the fulfillment of what these witnesses say as directed from heaven. Yes, the time must come shortly that the nations will have to know that really a "prophet" of Jehovah was among them.

    Who does Watch Tower CLEARLY identify as God's ONLY prophet? Who does Watch Tower say is the one who guides and directs it?

    1973. Watch Tower. July 1, 1973. (p. 402) In this edition Watch Tower again stated that they are THE ONLY ORGANIZATION ON EARTH THAT UNDERSTANDS THE "DEEP THINGS OF GOD!

    thinker

  • amicus
    amicus

    The early '70's were interesting times. I suppose one can't really understand the atmosphere that existed unless they were there.
    I began studying at 18 and dropped out of college to pioneer. I did not know anyone in the org. who attended college. Why waste time in college when Armageddon was so close? College was also villified as being "bad association".
    Many of the public talks, and all of the Service meetings stressed the need to preach, preach, preach. I knew of no one who made long term plans for the future (at least that they admitted to). The congregations I attended at that time were also considered very "strong spiritually". Perhaps there was a different attitude in other areas, but I never heard of it.

    Maybe you were one of those that just did not take the WT seriuosly about the 1975 fiasco

    Anyone that fit this description was considered spiritually sick. (Xandit, I do not mean that as a personal attack, just commentary on that statement.) Everyone thought the end was just a few years away, but we did shy away from discussing dates. I know of people who sold homes, decided not to have children, took early retirement, dropped out of school, sold valuable possessions, all to serve Jehovah whole heartedly in the few remaining years left. They did this with the blessing and encouragement of the WTBTS.
    It was disingenuous for the WTBTS to not accept responsibility for this behaviour. Anyone who claims that the gov. body wasn't responsible either wasn't there or has been conditioned over time to "forget" what really happened. When I see them try to distance themselves from their history I just naturally look closer at it. Why or what are they trying to hide?

    Edited by - amicus on 23 January 2001 0:34:19

  • Scorpion
    Scorpion

    "Similarly, the 'false prophet' is not a person, but is a system or organization." WT 6/15/1974

    "A religion that teaches lies cannot be true." WT 12/1/1991.p.7

    "Jehovah's Witnesses, in their eagerness for Jesus' second coming, have suggested dates that turned out to be incorrect. Because of this, some have called them false prophets. Never in these instances, however, did they presume to originate predictions in the name of Jehovah." AFAKE! March 22,1993. p.4

    COMPARE ON THE SAME PAGE!):

    "Most important, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator's promise of a peaceful and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away." AFAKE!, March 22,1993,P.4
    /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

    Thinkers wife,

    Yes I did type the word AFAKE on purpose. It seems only fitting.

  • amicus
    amicus

    I'm sorry this is disjointed. I went back to review another statement, saw these, and felt compelled to comment.

    I didn't live my life on the basis of what they were saying and neither did most other Witnesses


    I know of no one this applied to. As I have stated, the congregations I associated with were zealous, working their territory every two or three weeks and experienced rapid growth. We also had a lot of pioneers, MS's, and elders. That is a hypocritical attitude and demeans those who gave so freely to serve God.

    I only read/heard about the so called "1975 Fiasco". From what I understood, some of the friends went on spending sprees with the assumption that they wouldn't have to pay their debts.


    I would like to know where you read/heard this? I know of no one who did this. That statement is also demeaning. If it happened it was the exception and not the rule, done by ones who were spiritually weak, and not by those taking the lead.

    Edited by - amicus on 23 January 2001 1:18:53

  • Gozz
    Gozz

    Thinker,
    your post is disturbing; unsettling.
    The tower's caving-in. The fog is lifting...I John 4:1.

  • ianao
    ianao

    Hey amicus.

    Thank you for giving your commentary. So often I hear all of these stories written down as accounts on various webpages, but it's good to "hear" someone ectually tell it like it is.

    I had a friend who I deeply cared about who was just so convinced that all of these stories were just lies. What can you say to someone when they have a friend who is an elder who went to bethel and says none of these things EVER HAPPENED. Are people in denial, or what?

  • trevor
    trevor

    Hello,
    This is an interesting subject which has certainly got us all fired up. I think it is easier to understsnd the WTS when one realises that they are a political party. The Governing Body expect to be kings in heaven in a few years and the lesser elders will be princes on earth. They show all the insincerity of any other politiacal party.They will not let their members vote because they are the party that should be supported.

    Organized religion always ends up this way because power corrupts.The bigger the religion the bigger the corruption. The priests in Israel went the same way as did the Scribe in the time of Jesus. Some things never change.

    trevor

  • larc
    larc

    Ianao,

    I lived in those days too, and believe me the flock took those words just as seriously as they do today. It was God's truth through the FDS, and they bought it all. I wish those who discount the impact on people this had, would go back and read the WT quotes "as if" they were living then and ask what they would think, or read it as if they were reading it today for the first time seeing the new light. They would welcome it with no reservations, as they always do.

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