WT U-Turn on "Great Crowd" (May 1, 20...

by stevieb1 52 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  compton

  I believe when Jesus was refering to the other sheep that are not of this fold he was talking
  to the Jews and was therefore refering to the Gentiles ,whom Paul would later preach to.Do
  you think this is correct !
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  Nemesis

  Xander:
  

  2) and the 1935 cut off date
  I've seen this mentioned a couple times. But, I've looked through the watchtower CD and can't find any reference to how they determined this was some kind of 'cut off' point. How did they come to this year as a significant date?

  It’s easy Xander; first you take the second cousin of Nebuchadrezzar’s best friend's mother in law, and multiply that with her third birthday and the number of pearls in Revelation 21:21, which brings you up to 36. You take off the 6 as that’s the Devil’s number. Then you have 30, if you then take away the number of months Mary was pregnant with Jesus [the months being symbolic of years], you are left with 21. You then take away the year Adam and Eve sinned as this was a wicked year, and parallels the wicked day of Satan when he was cast down in 1914. You are left with the number 20, then you have to take the day Jesus died and add that on to the total as the day is now clearly a year, which you then add the whole total on to 1914, and come to the clear distinct year of 1935 for the sealing of the anointed class, only a fool would not see this. As you can see this is all proof beyond doubt that Jehovah’s blessing is with the faithful and discreet slave. I hope this has answered your question Xander, it’s so clear when we see it the Watch Tower way, I would never have understood until our resident prophet ‘You Know’ explained it to me. (© Watch Tower and You Know)
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  Xander

  Yes, of course, I see it now!

  A fanatic is one who, upon losing sight of his goals, redoubles his efforts.
  --George Santayana
• 

  taoInitiate

  Hi all

  The 1935 date is a weird one. When I was researching it a while back, to see what justification was used to come up with it, I found that the WT publications make "circular references" to prove it. I don't know the 2 articles/books, but I'm sure someone will remember and post them. They each refer to the other, as to how the date was arrived at, and neither of them give any real info on it.

  I think the date was based on the fact that there were now more than 144,000 witnesses associated with the org. at around that time, so the heavenly call (limited to just 144K) was OBVIOUSLY, proven by the facts of the times, finished.

  taoInitiate
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  LittleToe

  Xander:
  1935 was never based on chronology, it was based on statistics.

  Compton:
  Most reasonable people believe that, too.
• 

  Frenchy

  The creation of the two classes, heavenly and earthly, which occurred in 1935 was not the product of some great spiritual enlightenment nor was it, as has been the case over the years, merely a ‘better understanding’ of the Biblical Greek. Up until 1927 Russell was considered the ‘faithful slave’, a fact which I’m sure greatly vexed the egotistical and boisterous Judge. I don’t suppose there was any graceful way of applying the term to himself so he diluted and obscured it with the ridiculous and ambiguous phrase: “the entire body of spirit-anointed Christians on earth” . It has been clearly demonstrated here time and again that in real, day to day reality, this is simply not so inasmuch as those making that claim have not the least say so in anything that goes on with the organization, only those in the inner sanctum of the Governing Body.

  There came a time when it was recognized that the numbers would soon go over 144,000 and an ‘explanation’ would be needed for the difference. The notion of bringing in more people to merely become ‘second class heavenly citizens’ was not a very appealing one so they created another class, a earthly one with plenty of maneuvering room. ( In time a position of ‘princes’ was created for certain male members who would ‘take the lead’) I’m sure this thing was kicked around for a few years and some of the ‘bugs’ were worked out before they sprang it on the crowd at the convention in 1935. Up until that time you were one of the anointed only if you displayed great zeal in the preaching work. Now there was the potential of having a lot of zealous preachers without having to make more room for them in heaven.

  A reconciliation was made between ‘the great crowd’ of Revelation and the ‘other sheep’ of John, chapter 10. There heretofore problem of ‘the great crowd’ standing before the throne was solved with a little printer’s ink. Now they were ‘before the throne’ while ‘here on earth’. What a glorious revelation! The masses swallowed it hook, line, and sinker. That distinction of the two classes remains one of the fundamental dogmas of the WTBS. I don’t see it being abolished very soon if ever at all. There would have to exist a very real and pressing reason to do so and at present there is none.
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  Gozz

  The date of 1935 is quite clearly indicated in the scriptures. Apostates would argue that for a date to be so clearly indictaed, there would have to be some definite pointer to it, other than the regular development of biblical history, as evidenced in the fulfillment of prophecy on the true Christian Congregation, even at this crucial time of the end. For one, the ingathering of the holy ones, which had begun in Pentecost 33 CE must at some time come to a conclusion, indeed, the complete number of the main ones of the 144,000 must end. That number, again the bible indictaes, must come to its full at the time of the end. How do we know this?

  As Jesus' words clearly indicate, the anointed ably represented by the faithful slave, must be doing the work of feeding both the domestics and the sheep at the time of his inspection. This conclusively shows that there must be some form of difference in the functions of the two groups, and this was merely to exist in principle. At about the mid thirties, there came to be a great influx of the desirable things, making it apparent that the ingathering of the anointed ones must have come to a definite conclusion. Doubtless, this was clear to the number of those at that historic convention, since, in an act reminiscent of the reaction to preaching the word during the first century, thousands made an unequivocal declaration for being of the great crowd. The ingathering of the Israel of God was complete in the main! The nucleus of the great crowd of the other sheep was being formed!

  LittleToe:
  You must remember that statistics has never impressed God, The Society has severally stated this, but numbers play some role in the outworking of the dicvine purpose. Can you deny that?
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  tfs

  Interesting, the May 1st, 2002 "new light" Watchtower article says this:

  "Second, there was no Court of the Gentiles in the divinely provided archtectural plans of Solomon's temple or Ezekiel's visionary temple; now was there one in the temple rebuilt by Zerubbabel. Hence, there is no reason to suggest that a Court of the Gentiles needs to play a part in Jehovah's great spiritual temple arrangement for worship, especially when the following is considered."

  So based upon that new find, there are only 2 courtyards we need to be concerned with:

  (a) The "Inner Courtyard" (For Priests)

  (b) Outer Courtyard (For Israelites including proselytes)

  We see this aptly described at Rev. 11:1,2.

  "And a reed like a rod was given me as he said: "Get up and measure the temple [sanctuary] of God and the altar and those worshiping in it. But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple [sanctuary] cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months."

  2 Courtyards.

  An "inner courtyard" and an "outer courtyard". One area is "measured" and the other area is not, but instead is "given to the nations" for "trampling".

  The article continues:

  "Members of the great crowd exercise faith in Jesus'ransom sacrifice. They are spiritually clean, having "washed their robe and made them white in th blood of the Lamb." Hence, they are declared righteous with a view to becoming friends of God and of surviving the great tribulation. (James 2:23, 25) In many ways, THEY ARE LIKE PROSELYTES IN ISRAEL who submitted to the Law covenant and worshipped along with the Israelites."

  This is a key statement. It opens many doors. It proves to be a serious mistake on the WTS part, in trying to keep the Great Crowd out of a "Covenant-relationship" with God of any sorts.

  Here's why.

  First, they say the "Great Crowd" are like "proselytes". And what was a "proselyte"? A PROSELYTE is a person of the "nations", who converts over to the Jewish faith. He was not an Israelite by natural birth, but became one by persuasion and personal choice. "Proselytes" were accorded the same rights, privileges and duties of a natural "Israelite" by birth. They intermarried among the Israelite nation and was viewed as a bonifide "Israelite" in every way.

  And more importantly, the "proselyte" worshiped right alongside the Israelites, in the temple courtyards, where?

  Why, in the same place the Jewish nation. IN THE "OUTER COURTYARD" area, which was for Israelites. Thus, proselytes had equal standing with native Israelites. There was no distinction made between both groups. They were viewed as "Israelites" by the Jewish nation in every way. For example, (1) Uriah the Hittite, and (2) Ruth, the Moabitess, were both "proselytes" who proved to be in God's eyes, and in the nations', individuals of great valor and honor.

  Therefore, it was no big deal for the Ethopian Eunuch to become a christian. His conversion fell well before the conversion to christianity by the first uncircumcised gentile "Cornelius". In the Bible account of his conversion to christianity, we see this "proselyte" had his own personal copy of "Isaiah" as he was reading from it when approached by Philip". (Acts 8:26-40) Only a "Jew" was allowed this grand privilege.

  Also, other "proselytes" of note mentioned above like Uriah, the Hittite and Ruth, the Moabitess, were all viewed as Israelites of much note and honor, among the Jewish nation. And both of these are "proselytes" to the Jewish faith.

  So there was no distinction made between a "proselyte" and a natural Jew, so far as his spiritual "standing" with God was concerned. He would worship God, standing right within the same place as any other "Jew" or Israelite would -- right within the "outer courtyard" for the Israelites. Thus, this would make him a full-fledged member of the Mosiac Law Covenant. A Covenant-member.

  Therefore, if the "new light" of the WTS wishes to categorize the "Great Crowd" of Other Sheep as being spiritual "proselytes" rather than being unworthy spiritual "gentiles", then the Great Crowd of Other Sheep MUST BE viewed as full-fledged "Israelites" in a spiritual sense. They must be viewed as "Spiritual Isralites" who are worshiping God in the "OUTER COURTYARD where all of the other "Israelites" would properly worship.

  And if we place them there, then, the spiritual "proselytes" must be considered also, members of the "Covenant" between God and Israel. They must be viewed as spiritual "Israelites" who have a mediator, between themselves and God, the one being Jesus Christ. As spiritual Israelites, then they become members of the spiritual "Israel of God", by virtue of being spiritual "proselytes". (Galatians 6:16)

  Using this "new light," the WTS must realize, if they teach the "Great Crowd" are to be viewed as spiritual "proselytes", then they are teaching the "Great Crowd" are spiritual Israelites, who have a mediator between them and God, the one Jesus Christ. The WTS can not teach the "Great Crowd" are spiritual proselytes" and yet at the same time, try to DENY the "Great Crowd's" rightful "covenant"-standing with God any longer. The WTS' own teaching "adjustment" on the Court Yard setting in the May 1, 2002 magazine, makes this situation apparent. (1 Timothy 2:5)

  The article continues,

  "Of course, these proselytes did not serve in the inner courtyard, where the priests performed their duties. And members of the great crowd are not in the inner courtyard of Jehovah's great spiritual temple, which courtyard represents the condition of perfect, righteous human sonship of the members of Jehovah's "holy priesthood" while they are on earth. (1 Peter 2:5) But as the heavenly elder said to John, the great crowd really is in the temple, not outside the temple area in a kind of spiritual Court of the Gentiles. What a privilege that is! And how it highlights the need for ach one to maintain spiritual and moral purity at all times!"

  This paragraph says the "great crowd" are definitely NOT in the "inner courtyard" where the priests officiate. But says,

  "...the great crowd really is IN THE TEMPLE, not outside the temple area in a kind of spiritual Court of the Gentiles."

  So we know, according to this, they are definitely not to be considered, then, "Gentiles" according to God's estimation of their spiritual standing with Him.

  No, but the Great Crowd are seen as "proselytes", in the "outer court yard" setting, where all of the spiritual "Israelites" gather for worship. They are spiritual "proselytes", and thus members of the Covenant of Israel with God. And in that position, they are spiritual Israelites, who have Jesus as their mediator.

  This "new light" from the WTS, has made all of this possible. So, the WTS, by their own blunderings in foolishness, have only themselves to thank for this profound change in spiritual situation and circumstance for the "Great Crowd".

  tfs
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  Frenchy

  Gozz: “The date of 1935 is quite clearly indicated in the scriptures” I don’t see it at all. The reasoning you use: “the ingathering of the holy ones, which had begun in Pentecost 33 CE must at some time come to a conclusion, indeed, the complete number of the main ones of the 144,000 must end” This is only after making several assumptions outside of Scripture, for nowhere do the Scriptures speak of an end of the ingathering of one class of Christians and the beginning of the harvesting of another class. In fact, there is no mention of two different hopes for Christians at all in the Greek Scriptures unless one begins taking liberties with certain passages.

  There is also the possibility that the number 144,000 is symbolic. There is no conclusive, Spiritual proof that it is not. Even if the number is literal there is nothing to say that this number could not be taken out of the total number of Christians AFTER the final harvesting is complete. In that case the actual choosing would not take place until AFTER the end.

  Gozz: “As Jesus' words clearly indicate, the anointed ably represented by the faithful slave, must be doing the work of feeding both the domestics and the sheep at the time of his inspection. “

  Again there is actually very little clarity about the matter unless one chooses to arbitrarily contrive a doctrine and exclude everything that casts doubt upon it. Let’s look at the passage to which to allude:
  *********
  “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to YOU, He will appoint him over all his belongings.
  “But if ever that evil slave should say in his heart, ‘My master is delaying,’ and should start to beat his fellow slaves and should eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know, and will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his part with the hypocrites. There is where [his] weeping and the gnashing of [his] teeth will be.” Matt 24: 45-51
  ************
  First of all, it was a question. Upon reading the entire passage relating to this parable you may note that the entire thrust of this illustration is that this unidentified ‘slave’ is ‘faithful and discreet’ ONLY upon fulfilling a specific duty. So, to begin with, the slave’s faithfulness is a question at best. Look closely beginning with verse 48. Who is that slave? Why, he’s the same one spoken of so highly in the previous verse! Now he is evil. So, the slave’s faithfulness and his discretion is conditional upon his performance of his assigned duty. The slave is fallible and can, as the passage states, fall short of his duties and be classified as evil and as a hypocrite. So is the ‘slave’ of Matt 24, the true congregation? No. The very fact that this particular slave is subject to failure would make the true congregation subject to failure and thus God’s purpose for mankind would not be fulfilled and Isaiah 55:11 (and many other Scriptures) would be false.

  Who then is the ‘faithful and discreet slave’ of which Jesus spoke? I have my opinion on the matter as I’m sure that many of you here do. I do not see it as a religion, however. If I am wrong I would be happy to change my mind.

  Another point to the passage is that it speaks of an appointed ‘slave’ and of ‘domestics’. Even if we take the liberty of considering the ‘slave’ as being plural it still does not make him the ‘domestics’ as well now, does it? You still have two distinct groups here, namely the ‘domestics’ and the ‘appointed slave’. How do the two become one except by arbitrary contrivance? (I’m speaking to those who are familiar with the Society’s teaching on this matter) If the ‘slave’ and the ‘domestics’ are one and the same how is the ‘slave’ to be commended for taking care of himself? The only sensible conclusion is that they are not the same. Both belong to the household of the master. Both are slaves but one has been appointed to take care of the other. Since there is no mention of any other group we must conclude that these two groups encompass ALL of the master’s household.

  As for the ‘great influx’ of 1935 there simply was no such thing. Those people present had, up until that time, been told they would be second-class citizens of heaven and now they would be inheriting the earth and were being told it was okay (even if they were slothful and less than fully enthusiastic about the preaching work) to get baptized now. Once they were baptized and felt part of the organization that very fact would be used to put pressure upon them to go preach or else that grand paradise on earth which they were promised would not be theirs. It’s the classic puppy dog sale technique.

  Now, I’m interested to see how clearly the Bible points to 1975 and the end of this recently past century as being the cut off date for the preaching work, two dates that were used very effectively to goad the sheep into greater activity.

  tfs: You make some very good points there.
• 

  sadiejive

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