WT U-Turn on "Great Crowd" (May 1, 20...

by stevieb1 52 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Frenchy

  Little Toe:
  Thank you for your reply.
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  deddaisy

  I hope that I'm not throwing in a question that's out of "context," but this thread brings up a somewhat related question that I've had for awhile regarding the Witnesse's "Great Crowd" teaching.....Also, thanks for the thread, its very interesting. Now for my question. Is anyone familiar as to what the witnesses teach as to the meaning of
  REVELATION 19:1 ? Quoting my Bible, an RSV:

  "After this I heard what seemed to be the mighty voice of A GREAT MULTITUDE IN HEAVEN, crying 'Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,'..." (Emphasis added)
  I'm sure the NWT says basically the same thing, except maybe "Great Crowd in heaven," instead of "multitude." I attended meetings but never heard this scripture addressed. Just curious......
  Again, thanks for an interesting thread
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  GermanXJW

  The German NWT renders the word differently in Revelation 7:9 ("Volksmenge" = crowd of people) and in Revelation 19:1 ("Menge" = crowd). But it is the same Greek word.
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  Justin

  I think the WT would say that the "great crowd" of Revelation 19:1 are angels, and therefore is not identical with the "great crowd" of Revelation 7:9. I believe I read this years ago in the book, "Babylon the Great Has Fallen - God's Kingdom Rules," but I no longer have this book on hand. If the latest commentary on Revelation is available, perhaps someone could tell us what that has to say.
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  lv4fer

  I haven't read all the comments yet but I must say this really doesn't make alot of sense. I pride myself on having pretty good reading comprehension skills, but this really baffles me. I'm not sure what they are trying to say....but maybe that's it they really aren't trying to say anything. They are just trying to dazzle us with their bullshit (pardon my french).
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  JW Ben

  What is all the fuss about?

  Most JWs wouldnt care if the OS were in this court yard or that court yard.

  Just where the OS stand in realation to the temple, if it be in a part of the temple that was not part of the original or not, makes no difference to a JW as to the out come of Salvation. They still beleive that the OS will be here on earth and the LF will go to heaven.

  What is wrong with people expanding their knowledge. It hapens all the time espectially in medicen. I am glad that doctors continue to advance. Sometimed they get it wrong and sometimes they get it right. The overal effect is a learning from mistakes and improving.
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  crownboy

  deddaisy,
  
  I believe that the Watchtower amazinly attributes Rev. 19:1 to the annointed despite the fact it says "great crowd". I think they arrived at it through circular reasoning ("the annionted go to heaven, and the great crowd stays on earth, since Rev. 19:1 talks about people being in heaven, it must be the annionted"). I could be wrong, but I think that's it. However, the scripture talking about the great crowd "standing before the throne of God" does refer to the "great crowd", but standing before God's throne means mearly being in His presence, which according to the Society means it happens on earth.

  JW Ben said:
  

  What is all the fuss about?

  Most JWs wouldnt care if the OS were in this court yard or that court yard.

  Just where the OS stand in realation to the temple, if it be in a part of the temple that was not part of the original or not, makes no difference to a JW as to the out come of Salvation. They still beleive that the OS will be here on earth and the LF will go to heaven.

  What is wrong with people expanding their knowledge. It hapens all the time espectially in medicen. I am glad that doctors continue to advance. Sometimed they get it wrong and sometimes they get it right. The overal effect is a learning from mistakes and improving.

  True, but in the interim did that doctor claim to speak for God and oppose all who disagreed with his old methods? Did he punish those who suggested he was wrong, especially when they found pretty good evidence that he was indeed in error? The comparison is not the same.

  Go therefore and baptize the people in the name of the father and of the son... what the hell, we just need to bring up the yearbook numbers!
• 

  Will Power

  but standing before God's throne means mearly being in His presence,whichh according to the Society means it happens on earth.

  hmmmmmmmm, standing before/being in the presence of, god, on earth, who is the god of the earth?
  hmmmmmmmm

  If they start confusing the issue, ie. 1 article says these guys are here, those are there, few months later art.#2 theses guys here but doing this, those guys doing that, later again art #3 these guys are there doing that, those guys here doing this after that but before the others start blah blah blah, 2 years later - What do you mean?, we've always believed it to be this way, (she must be an apostate)

  Pretty soon like ususal most start out trying to follow, but when new light is emerging things can get complicated and soon no one knows what they believe, only know the last thing, (each one having their own last learned) blood, rape-scream, generation, 1914, 1918, 1925, 1975, on & on & on. How many more years before Jesus is not Michael, everyone accepting Christ participates at memorial and everyone goes to heaven?

  And thats why you can never get a straight answer!!!!
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  deddaisy

  JW BEN,
  If ever you should go through the heartbreak of losing someone due to the lack of a needed blood transfusion, or possibly having to "shun" a child or parent for a lifetime, only to find out that the scripture that this commandment was based on was only "misinterpreted" by the WTS, I hope someone is there to ask you "what all the fuss is about?" I mean "sometimed they get it wrong and sometimes they get it right."

  GERMAN JW, JUSTIN, AND CROWNBOY:
  Thank you for the input, no wonder I never heard this scripture addressed at ANY of the 3 meetings per week, it gets quite messy it seems...If 7:9 refers to, according to JW's, the "great crowd" standing before the throne and lamb in white robes,(supposedly on earth), then WHY in verse 7:13, does it go on having one of the elders have to ASK "who are these, clothed in white robes, and whence have they come?" I'm taking "whence have they come," to mean "where did they come from." If this is the case, then I don't understand why if they were on earth to begin with, and now they're STILL on earth (according to JW's), then they didn't come from anywhere, right...so why is this elder speaking as if they arrived from somewhere else? I don't know, maybe I'm over-reading this, but it seems to make sense if you read it like they're in HEAVEN, coming from earth....Also, it goes on to say in 7:15 that "they are before the throne of God and serve him (God) WITHIN his temple." (Emphasis added) Now if they are on earth, then God's temple (and God) is on earth, right? Then the 144,000 are up in heaven while God, his temple, and throne are down on earth? This makes absolutely no sense to me......To be honest with you, I've never been a big believer in heaven, but reading Revelation without the benefit of WT lit.(literature not litter silly) almost makes me consider heaven a possibility....I apologize for getting carried away but the more I read, the more questions I have. I once read a scripture in, I thought it was John but I can't find it, anyway it also referred to the "great crowd in heaven." I did ask these sisters about that, but I think it through them off and I didn't get an answer.......
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  JW Ben

  Isiah 66:1 says "Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?: (AV)

  Lamintations 2:1 "How hath the Lord covered the daughter of Zion with a cloud in his anger, and cast down from heaven unto the earth the beauty of Israel, and remembered not his footstool in the day of his anger!" (AV)

  Matt 5:34,35 "But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God’s throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King." (AV)

  Acts 7:49:"Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?" (AV)

  All those texts pluss others places the earth in the very prence of Jehovah, right at his feet. So why is it inconcivable the the court yard not be included on earth?

  The word TEMPLE translates the word ‘naos’ in the Greek. Although it is true, that predominantly the word stands for the ‘sanctuary’ which is represented by heaven, that is not always the case, even with the Apostle John. The ‘naos’ that was built in 46 years at John 2: 19-22 was not just talking about the ‘sanctuary’ but the entire structure, including its courtyards.

  Concerning the great crowd and the phrase "before" the throne. "Before" is "enopion" in the Greek and simply means "in the sight of". There is no reason to think you must be in heaven to be in the sight of God, especially in highly symbolic visions. Revelation 20:11 shows that the 'earth and heaven' could easily be considered in the sight of God, for there they are spoken of as fleeing from God's face as he is on the throne.
  From seeing how the same Greek word is used elsewhere, we can see that being "before" or "in the sight of" God does not require being in heaven.
  Jeremiah 35:19 LXX
  Isaiah 66:22 LXX
  Luke 1:75
  Acts 10:33
  Romans 14:22
  Galatins 1:20
  1 Timothy 5:21
  2 Timothy 2:14

  As far as Rev 19:1 goes there is no need to assume that it refers to the same "great crowd"
  REV 19:1 "And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:" (AV)

  REv 7:9 "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;" (AV)

  If we assune that they are the same group of people then we must use the same reasonings to assume that every time the term great crowd (or as the AV says great multitude) they must also reder to the same thing.

  Scripture clearly shows that the earth is in sight of God and we are in the sight of God.

  We can go arround in circles with every one pointing to different texts, but for me I need to put the texts into the "BIG" picture of Gods purposes for the earth... to be inhabited ... and se how those texts fit into that. For me it is quite clear that the great crowd are on earth and thiose that are to be joint heirs with Christ are in heaven.

  JW Ben