by crystlew123 76 Replies latest jw friends
@ Sulla
The thing that bothers me the most about these kinds of topics is that the 'struggling believer' goes out, reads a single book, and the matter's completely settled after that.
"Let's not bother with checking out the other side to these issues, the Bible must not be true, and God must not exist. Because I read a book. I'm going to watch Jersey Shore now!"
@Sulla and jmorgan74,
First of all, I don't know why you assume we've reached our conclusion on the basis of "one book" and have never considered the other side (and because of this we are "dumb").
As JWs we heard the "other side" ad nauseum. I can't speak for others, but in my case I was raised a Catholic and spent countless hours in religious classes learning all about the Bible from that perspective. How many different believers' perspectives does one have to endure before you'll say that their conclusion was not based on limited input? Okay, I also read Protestant works. Does that help? How about reading the Bible itself twice, cover-to-cover?
Yes, there are "smarter" people than me. Yes some of them say that not all of the Bible is garbage (in fact I say that myself. For instance, when the anonymous writer puts the following words in Jesus' mouth: "Why do you not decide for yourselves what is right?")
There are other "smarter" people than me who say that the Bible is more garbage than it is useful. So "smartness" really has no relevance here.
It isn't who is smart and who is dumb. It is: who can see past the horizon of their own culture and examine their beliefs objectively to determine if they are as true as they claim to be.
First of all, I don't know why you assume we've reached our conclusion on the basis of "one book" and have never considered the other side (and because of this we are "dumb").
Because you show no evidence whatever of having any familiarity with the considerable amount of scholarship / commentary on these stories that begins with an understanding of exactly what the stories contains. And there is a lot of it that you have not considered.
As JWs we heard the "other side" ad nauseum.
If you are paying attention, my point is that as JWs, we did not hear the "other side." What we heard was the fundamentalist / JW version, which is a very childish way to look at scripture. Other alternatives exist, and have for several thousand years now. If Christianity bothers you, try the Jewish commentators.
Okay, I also read Protestant works. Does that help? How about reading the Bible itself twice, cover-to-cover?
And yet, you still had your mind blown when you read all the bad stories in the OT. Was your bible missing Judges, Kings, and Genesis? But I hope you can see why someone like you, who finds all that stuff amazing and concludes that the whole thing is bunk probably hasn't a clue about what she is reading.
It isn't who is smart and who is dumb. It is: who can see past the horizon of their own culture and examine their beliefs objectively to determine if they are as true as they claim to be.
What claim do you suppose is being made in the OT that is not true? Was that claim supposed to be that followers of YHWH are transformed into 21st century humanists? Was that claim supposed to be that King David was a man who kept control of his appetites? What was it, in your estimation?
@ SUlla. Reaally? You just have to be rude dont you? Seriously. I never said the bible wasnt worth reading. I was raised JW. I took everything at fce value until one day I decided to do my own research. (and I am still doing my research)
@ JPMorgan why would I google who killed goliath. According to the way I was raised, it was David. I didnt need to look it up when I was asked this question. I ws never told of this other person who also killed Goliath. You know that oxygen is what humans breathe. Did you look it up on google? YOu have been told this your whole life. DUDE SERIOUSLY? why would you beleive that it is OXYGEN you breathe just because you grew up hearing that damn near everyday and was forced to accept this at face value? Was the internet available widely when you wer growing up? Hmm SERIOUSLY???
Again SULLA OK, I'll repeat myself. Why are you so dumb? Since the Bible can't usefully be read the way ignorant fundamentalists read it, it must be that the Bible can't usefully be read at all!
How did any of you fall of the JWs, keen wits that you have?
I got it. you think im an idiot. Thanks for your opinion. I dont agree with it.
No I dont suppose I am the FIRST person to discover these things in the scripture. I have heard them for a long time, but dutifully IGNORED them as a GOOD JEHOVAHS WITNESS, even after I left. Thanks to the brainwashing, I was reluctant to read anything by apostates. I dont know if you were ever a JW, or if you werent. I dont really care. SO yes just recently have I started really delving into subjects. I just thought it was amazing. If you thought Im full of BS and a total fucking idiot, you COULD have ignored my post. No one is FORCING you toi READ OR RESPOND to anything you read on the internet.
@JPMorgan" The thing that bothers me the most about these kinds of topics is that the 'struggling believer' goes out, reads a single book , and the matter's completely settled after that.
"Let's not bother with checking out the other side to these issues, the Bible must not be true, and God must not exist.Because I read a book. I'm going to watch Jersey Shore now!"
Hmm when the hell did i ever say that ws the only book i had ever read on the subject, or tht I ws not going to be reading another book on the subject and tht my mind was completely made up b y ONE SINGLE BOOK? Obviously I missed my own posts somewhere? would you mind reposting them for me since I am having trouble finding that one particular one where I said I took this book at 100% face value and it was my new bible and that I would never beleieve anything except what it said?
Also please repost where i stated I didnt think God doesnt exist? It must have turned invisible on me since I cant find it anywhere.
Appreciate the time , thanks.
In anycase, I just finished reading ABOBS. It was a very interesting book, and I found it very logical and easy to read and understand. Rather than a million excuses, he laid out exactly why he thought that way, without talking in circles and a lot of huge words that "dumb people" ( RE SULA POST ABUT ME) like me can find difficult to understand. I appreciated the humour in the pages.
Anyway, im off to watch my six year old nephew and my six year old son do the things boys do when its nice outside. Have a good day :D
"Also please repost where i stated I didnt think God doesnt exist? "
Sorry should say "ALso please repost where I stated that I now believed god doesnt exist?"
After thinking about this some more, I think I probably was too sarcastic in my responses in this topic. I apologize.
JPMorgan why would I google who killed goliath. According to the way I was raised, it was David. I didnt need to look it up when I was asked this question. I ws never told of this other person who also killed Goliath. You know that oxygen is what humans breathe. Did you look it up on google? YOu have been told this your whole life. DUDE SERIOUSLY? why would you beleive that it is OXYGEN you breathe just because you grew up hearing that damn near everyday and was forced to accept this at face value? Was the internet available widely when you wer growing up? Hmm SERIOUSLY???
Ok, I deserve some of the angst expressed here. All I was trying to express is that if I was told something that bothered me, something that was different from what I was previously told, then I would absolutely verify what was being said with at least doing a google search. I would also dig deeper, evaulate the sources, and then make a decision. Believe me, there have been issues that have come up, and positions I've had to abandon that were once very important to me, and I didn't let go easily. But eventually I had to make the choice based on the evidence that I had.
Thanks,
Jack
Jack,
I was never bothered by the goliath story. I honestly just found out about the second supposed killer when i read aPBOBS. I did look it up, albiet not as thougholy as i might have, but i went by the scriptures listed in the book, and seeing as how i had never read the bible front to back ( i left when i was 16) it was honestly new to me. IT surprised me and maybe i came off a little too shocked by this but im sure you know how it goes. You grow up believing somthing your whole life and when you learn there is a different version of events, from the same book that the original belief came from, it is a bit of a shock.
I am probably going to try to read the bible all the way through (since the first time i didnt even get past gen 4), cross refrencing various topics with other literature (not JW) and maybe ill use google.
TO be completly honest, I laughed when i clicked on the link. I am a very sarcastic person and I understood the thought but thought that without more background, perhaps your answer was a bit ...rougher than was warrented. I forget that not every one reads every topic on this board. (I am dumb I guess lol) I did post my story here in this forum named "friends"a few days ago if any one is interested (titled : My story, not that intersting but i want to tell it anyway)
In the last ten years i have also had to give up alot of the beliefs I was raised. ALthough it has been more here recently, because when i first left, my basic thought process was "fuck it" I was after all 16 and just discovering a lot of things about myself. Now thatI am older, I m trying to figure out why peoplee believe the things they do, how it is to tuaght to them and why other people believe it is wrong. Ive never been really good about studying things- guess thats a product of the way i was raised to NOT consider anything but the way i was told to believe.
I am currently in the process of figuring out my own beliefs , as to whether there is a GOd or not, and so on. I have herad a lot of testimony from both sides, both here and in books I have read and other forums. I still havent made up my mind. I do believe in the supernatural, and other things that go along with that. (due to personal experiences growing up and here recently)
I also want my son to grow up with the viewpoint that it is okay to believe wht you believe nd other people can believe what they choose to believe, without everyone getting into big fights on the subject and starting wrs, that it is okay to discuss various beliefs logically and with candidness. But I want to set the example by doing my own research as I would hope he would do on any subject not just religious points of view.
Sulla: OK, I'll repeat myself. Why are you so dumb?
Why are you allways acting like a total dick when the bible is critisized? Your reaction is not only bad form and disproportional, but it is getting pretty easy to predict.
Oh, and nice move with the strawman "d o you suppose you are the first person to have discovered all that stuff in scripture? ". Yah. that was totally what the OP did, posting that he read contradictions pointed out by another person in a book.
Good on you that you know the bible is full of contradictory and illogical nonsence, not so good you just shrug it away and derp on, but you are in good company in that lapse of judgement -- but why do you protest so much?
Not so good you cant allow other people to think that if god really inspired a book to all of mankind, he would kind of proofread it.
I hate to be predicable, bohm, so that's an effective critique. But to answer your question, why am I such a dick? I suppose it's because the complaints are themselves predictable and dick-ish.
But I'm not sure I've seen you hatin' on those dick-ish and predictable comments. I'm sure you know the ones I mean:
"Did you know Lot fucked his own daughters!!??? What kind of bronze-age phycho god goes for that? The whole thing is bullshit, man!"
"It is, like, physically impossible for every animal on the planet to get put in Noah's ark! Bornze-age bullshit! Can't believe anybody is stupid enough to believe that shit!"
"The so-called gospels can't even figure out when the so-called Last Supper was supposed to be. Did you know that there are contradictions all over the Bible? I just found out about more, and the whole book is bullshit, man!"
Etc., & etc. Dick-ish and predictable, I guess. But consistent with your viewpoint (?) and so not subject to your critique? I suppose you figure the fact that there are two different stories about who killed Goliath or the fact that there are several different stories about how Sarah was claimed to be Abraham's sister or whatever is supposed to be some sort of problem. I don't know why that is because nobody has ever spelled it out.
Maybe now would be a good time. Why should I be bothered by this amazing discovery?
I dont know why YOU should be bothered to even be on this thread. Other than yes you have the freedom of speech and such to do so....but WHY would you if all you had to say was negative? Why even bother wsaying anything at all., after all nothing was directed AT you until you made rude comments. Which, even if you feel that way (and apparently you do) there is more than one way to "discuss your feelings" and without using words like YOU ARE DUMB and etc.
In anycase.... i have already explained myself to Morgan. So i am not going to do so again. Not that i even really hd to, but i wanted to.
Sigh...negative people are so..... bleh
