How did any of you fall of the JWs, keen wits that you have?
I did not. But my parents did.
Atheist Book of Bible Stories
by crystlew123 76 Replies latest jw friends
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transhuman68
LOL, there is no doubt the Bible has some problems- large and small. For JW's it must come as a shock- I know it did for me. So the problems may not be insurmountable for someone who is a Christian- but it is still good to do research, so you can know what the arguments are, and make an informed choice. If you don't mind reading e-books, this one is a ripper:
http://archive.org/details/BartD.Ehrman-ForgedWritingInTheNameOfGod-WhyTheBiblesAuthors
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Sulla
I'm bothered to be on this thread, crystiew, because I find it interesting. I believe I've pointed out why I think the viewpoint very commonly expressed here -- that contradictions, bad behavior, whatever, render scripture useless / un-true / false / whatever -- is quite silly. Perhaps I have missed the part where you've explained why I should be distressed to discover that there are a pair of traditions recorded about who, exactly, whacked Goliath. If so, I apologize. If not, maybe you could share.
Heaven, heh. I hear ya.
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smmcroberts
@ Sulla,
Because you show no evidence whatever of having any familiarity with the considerable amount of scholarship / commentary on these stories that begins with an understanding of exactly what the stories contains. And there is a lot of it that you have not considered.
You don't know what I have considered. I have read more books and taken more classes about the Bible and religion than I care to admit (and how I wish I had that time back again to spend more fruitfully!) I feel that I've certainly spent more than enough time to make an informed decision. I'm not going to try to share all of that in a reply to a post: who would or could? So, no; you may not see evidence of it here, but I don't think that justifies making assumptions and calling people names based on those assumptions.
And yet, you still had your mind blown when you read all the bad stories in the OT. Was your bible missing Judges, Kings, and Genesis? But I hope you can see why someone like you, who finds all that stuff amazing and concludes that the whole thing is bunk probably hasn't a clue about what she is reading.
No, I really can't see why you would assume that I haven't a clue. My Bible did contain those books, that's why I was amazed when I read them. I had been taught that the god of the Bible was a god of love. It turns out he was a god of war. Yes, non-fundamentalists may have already known this, but as JWs we did not, and this happens to be a JW forum. So why are you amazed by our reaction when we first discover that the Bible is not "God's Word"? Yes, we were "dumb" to have ever believed this, but it's rather rude of you to say so.
What claim do you suppose is being made in the OT that is not true? Was that claim supposed to be that followers of YHWH are transformed into 21st century humanists? Was that claim supposed to be that King David was a man who kept control of his appetites? What was it, in your estimation?
Where does one begin to answer a question like that? There are so many obviously false claims to choose from! How about the claim that Moses talked with God and God told him that one of the original ten commandments was not to boil a kid in its mother's milk ( Ex:34:26) . That's a claim in the OT that I suppose is not true. Since you're so much smarter than I am, let me humbly ask: Do you suppose it is true?
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crystlew123
@ sulla " Perhaps I have missed the part where you've explained why I should be distressed to discover that there are a pair of traditions recorded about who, exactly, whacked Goliath. "
Hmmm Never said you should Be. This isnt exactly a post YOU started now was it? This topic was started by ME! Wow what a concept something that DOESNT revolve around your small bullshit angry at everyone and everything and no room for anyone elses viewpoints or opinions world. Good grief.
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King Solomon
Sulla says:
OK, I'll repeat myself. Why are you so dumb?
Here's what I mean: do you suppose you are the first person to have discovered all that stuff in scripture? If lots of people smarter than you have been reading these books for thousands of years (assuming you allow the possibility that there exist people who have ever been smarter than you) and have somehow concluded that scripture is not all garbage, does it occur to you that they may have something useful to say about the subject? Or are you so taken with your own amazing smarts that you don't need to pause to consider that the civilization that thinks these works are worthwhile are really worthwhile?
Lemme boil that mess down to size for you, Sulla:
Ad hominem, followed by an appeal to tradition.
Why didn't you just post that, instead?
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Knowsnothing
Perhaps I have missed the part where you've explained why I should be distressed to discover that there are a pair of traditions recorded about who, exactly, whacked Goliath. - Sulla
You're not distressed about the Bible being fallible, yet you still somehow reconcile the Biblical message to your Catholic liking. That's fine, but that's on you to rationalize your particular belief.
Perhaps you shouldn't be distressed, but certainly any fundamentalist interpretation should. I hope the scope of criticism is clear.
Now, if you'd like to give some input as to why you choose to adhere to your faith, yet reject Biblical infallibilty, by all means, that sounds interesting.
Editted to add: If you like the Atheist Book of Bible Stories, perhaps you will like the parrodies posted on reddit.
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snare&racket
Well Sulla, im sold.... Your respOnse that you and others know about the contradictions and immoral activity in the bible, somehow negates all the issues. Wow. Which church should I sign up to? How are you not a muslim Sulla? Surely any contradictions, immoral issues etc can be overlooked in the Quaran too?! Scientology?..... LOTS of people know about Xenu now and been as you argue that knowing the issues somehow overides them... Shall we all go buy E-meters?
You think you're clever, you dont understand the bible, you read it out of context, smarter people than you believe it.... Etc etc... All lazy answers, ironcally heard a million times also, similar to the bible issues. Shame you were not around when people were being indoctrinated to make them aware of the genocidal, racist, sexist, slavery celebrating, homophobic, jealous, angry, demander of worship and blood sacrifice...
Snare
P.s. plenty of smart people have been treating fevers with natural remedies and medication for centuries, people a lot smarter than all of us. But now we know its a defence mechanism to denature bacteria. Intelligence and number of practitioners means nothing in the matters of truth.
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King Solomon
Here's what I mean: do you suppose you are the first person to have discovered all that stuff in scripture? If lots of people smarter than you have been reading these books for thousands of years (assuming you allow the possibility that there exist people who have ever been smarter than you) and have somehow concluded that scripture is not all garbage, does it occur to you that they may have something useful to say about the subject? Or are you so taken with your own amazing smarts that you don't need to pause to consider that the civilization that thinks these works are worthwhile are really worthwhile?
Lemme boil that mess down to size for you, Sulla:
Ad hominem, followed by an appeal to tradition.
(OOPS: I see I forgot a key ingredient at the end: "with a pinch of circular reasoning added, to taste")
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Sulla
smmcroberts: No, I really can't see why you would assume that I haven't a clue. My Bible did contain those books, that's why I was amazed when I read them. I had been taught that the god of the Bible was a god of love. It turns out he was a god of war.
Well, if I came across something that bothered me that much, perhaps I would go and see what Jewish thinkers make of all this? They have been reading these works for several thousand years, now, and may possibly have some familiarity with the stories that have you so vexed. They are their stories, after all. Maybe the rabbis don't know that it's all bunk.
On the other hand, we have the example of someone on thif forum (was it Quendi? somebody) who had the great blessing to discuss these books with some rabbis. Unfortunately for him, he began to discuss with them from the perspective of the fundamentalist / JW. He reports he was humiliated, because their knowledge of the OT was so much more spohisticated than he was prepared for. Such an experience might do you some good. Keep you from popping off like this.
knowsnothing: Perhaps you shouldn't be distressed, but certainly any fundamentalist interpretation should. I hope the scope of criticism is clear.My complaint as I pointed out very early in this thread, knowsnothing, has been that the claim I keep seeing here amounts to: "The Bible cannot usefully be read in an ignorant, fundamentalist way, therefore the Bible cannot usefully be read in any way at all." But, since you limit your criticism to that ignorant fundamentalist reading, then we seem to be in agreement. Good to see.
Knowsnothing: Now, if you'd like to give some input as to why you choose to adhere to your faith, yet reject Biblical infallibilty, by all means, that sounds interesting.
Catholics have been reading scripture for a couple thousand years. None of this is news to us. Hell the pope wrote a little book that directly engages the two creation stories in Genesis, explaining that one is from a much older tradition than the other, but that both express a uniquely Jewish creation myth. That thing somebody mentioned here about two different people who get credit for killing Goliath -- I hadn't heard it before, but I go and check out my trusty NJB and, what do you know!, there it is in the footnotes! 2 Sam whatever draws on an older tradition that ascribes the killing of GOliath to one of David's men ... etc.
I read scripture like a Catholic. You read it like a JW. It shouldn't surprise anyone, given the famous JW inability to perform honest research, that approaching scripture with that perspective leads to poor results. Like being shocked to find more than one creation story in Genesis, or finding out both David and one of David's men was credited with killing some particular guy.
It is apparently a great and underappreciated advantage to know that the OT is not 21st century history.
snare&recket: Shame you were not around when people were being indoctrinated to make them aware of the genocidal, racist, sexist, slavery celebrating, homophobic, jealous, angry, demander of worship and blood sacrifice...
Ok. I can see now that asking people on this board to approach the OT with even the smallest amount of sophistication simply won't work. I blame the JW bias against education, on display here.