by Bangalore 144 Replies latest jw friends
Freydo - I am not really sure what your point is. Jesus commanded his disciples to go into the "circuit of the cities of ISRAEL.."
THAT'S RIGHT! And they weren't looking for pagans. Some got drawn in like in the Exodus. I think that's what the parable of the dragnet might be referencing. BUT they traveled all over Europe looking for the lost sheep of ISRAEL. Jeremiah was buried in Ireland, btw, and both Paul and Peter had been to England.
THAT'S RIGHT! And they weren't looking for pagans. Some got drawn in like in the Exodus. I think that's what the parable of the dragnet might be referencing. BUT they traveled all over Europe looking for the lost sheep of ISRAEL. Jeremiah was buried in Ireland, btw, and both Paul and Peter had been to England.
ROFL!!!
And did you ever read about the Scythians in Colossians 3:11? These were not pagans.
(James 1:1) From: Ya‘akov, a slave of God and of the Lord Yeshua the Messiah
To: The Twelve Tribes in the Diaspora:
Shalom!
NeonMadman I cannot help but notice you did not answer the question. I asked you: "How are the disciples to search out in a city who is deserving and who is not? How can Jesus say the entire city will be judged on Judgement Day if the disciples only went to talk to a few people here and there in private homes? Also, notice that Jesus says "wherever anyone does not listen to YOUR words...on going out of THAT HOUSE". Now if Jesus' disciples are just teaching people in their private homes, why would the people they are teaching not listen to their words? Again, why is the entire city/village going to be judged on Judgement Day if all the disciples are doing is teaching/preaching in private homes?"
To which you replied: " As I pointed out above, one possibility is that they would contact people in public places and then visit with them in their homes upon invitation. We aren’t talking about Manhattan here. Cities back then were much smaller than cities today, and there were many fewer distractions in the form of entertainment than we have today. Ephesus was a good sized city for the time - I visited its ruins just last month - but no bigger than an average small town today. When someone came to town with a new teaching and proclaimed it in public, word got around very effectively. People came to follow Jesus in droves to hear His preaching, because word had gotten around."
This does not answer the question. Jesus told his disciples to search out who is deserving in any city/village they enter. The entire city would be judged based on their response to Jesus disciples. The entire city cannot be judged if everyone in the city has not at least been given a chance to hear the message. The theory that they would contact people in public places and then visit them in their homes does not make logical sense when we look at Jesus commands. Surely, if you go into any given town, you cannot contact all of its inhabitants with a message if you simply go to public places. No, if you want the entire city to hear your message you will not only have to go to public places, you will also have to go to each person's individual home. This is exactly what the disciples did. That is why it is virtually translated as "from house to house" and not "in private homes of interested people", because it is not logical or sensical.
People came to follow Jesus in droves to hear His preaching, because word had gotten around. Surely you aren’t going to try to make the case that the disciples went around Jerusalem from door to door passing out invitations to the Sermon on the Mount?
Jesus is training his disciples in the preaching work so that they continue it after he is long gone. Of course, Jesus could do everything better himself but he is sending forth his disciples to preach so that they can acquire skill and in the future take the lead in the disciple making work. Surely, you aren't going to try to make the case that it wasn't necessary for the disciples to preach from door to door simply because Jesus had crowds follow after him?
Admittedly, another possibility is that the disciples did actually preach from house to house. I’m not trying to make the case that they absolutely did not do so. My point is that there is not explicit enough indication in the Bible to be certain that they absolutely did, as JWs argue. Remember, the question we are discussing is not whether the disciples preached from house to house, but whether God commands Christians to preach in this specific manner. JWs would argue that, if the apostles preached this way, modern Christians are also required to follow this exact method, with God disapproving anyone who fails to do so, no matter how zealous he may be about spreading the message in other ways.
Bible translators of all credentials disagree with you. If the early Christians method of preaching was ambiguous/unclear, it would not be so easily translated as "from house to house". This is not an issue of serious lexical debate, because it is very obvious to those who use their thinking caps and those who are not attempting to discredit the house to house preaching work of JW's.
Sorry, but your timeline is flawed. The three-year visit that is ending here in Acts 20 was not Paul’s first visit to Ephesus, and it is untrue that there were no disciples in Ephesus when he arrived. According to Insight on the Scriptures (v. 1, p. 735), Paul had visited Ephesus previously in 52 C.E. and then left, promising to return if it was God’s will. During his absence, Aquila and Pricilla remained in Ephesus, along with Apollos, whom they taught. Paul returned in the winter of 52/53 and then proceeded to stay for 3 years. So it is apparent that there were disciples in Ephesus prior at least to Paul’s second visit. Now, if I understand your argument correctly, you are saying that in one three-year visit, Paul took Ephesus from having no Christians at all to having a church with elders, and that therefore his teaching must have included house to house canvassing so as to make converts, some of whom would later become elders, but that his reference to teaching “publicly and from house to house” would refer to all phases of this three-year visit. But your premise is wrong. There were Christians, and almost certainly at least a rudimentary church in Ephesus before his arrival. He did much to grow and develop it, but it wasn’t as if he walked into the city, started converting pagans and built a church where there was no prior Christian presence at all. So I would maintain what I said – Paul’s comments in Acts 20:20 refer to his actions toward “you” – the elders with whom he was speaking and not the church as a whole.
I was not referring to Paul's visit to Ephesus for the first time, but his first visit to Ephesus on his second missionary trip. That is the theme of Acts 19 and 20, his second missionary trip, his first visit to Ephesus on that trip. On his first trip on his second missionary tour, what does Paul find? Does he come to Ephesus and find a thriving, organized congregation of Ephesians? No, he finds 12 men who have not yet been baptized in holy spirit. The account does not mention Aquila and Priscilla or Apollos. We do not have conclusive proof that they are still there. So where is the proof that there were Christians in Ephesus before his second arrival? Paul talks about being with "YOU" (the older men of the congregation) from the first day he arrived in Ephesus. It is impossible that this is a reference to his preaching in the private homes of elders because there was no congregation or any Christians mentioned in the Bible at the time of his arrival to Ephesus for the second time.
Incidentally, I find it interesting that the emphasis in Acts is placed on Paul’s preaching in the synagogue and the school auditorium at Tyrannus – public places – and not particularly on any supposed house-to-house campaign (Acts 19:8-10). Note that verse 10 states that “This [reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus] continued for two years, so that all the residents of Asia heard the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks.” Not through random door-knocking, but through preaching in public places.
Surely, all the inhabitants of Asia didn't hear the word of the Lord at the synagogue (in Ephesus) and the school auditorium (in Tyrannus). The district of Asia was far more encompassing than just a school auditorium in Tyrannus and a synagogue in Ephesus. But it would have been possible for Paul to reach all the residents of the district of Asia if he preached from house to house and not just in a school auditorium in one city. Hmm, which one sounds like the more reasonable conclusion?
I also do not understand why you continue to repeat your point about the disciples preaching in public places. Yes, we know that they did. Jehovah's Witnesses do that as well. But there is a reason house to house preaching is deemed more effective than walking up to strangers in public places, such as street corners or businesses. You are far more likely to strike up a serious conversation with someone in the privacy of their own home, than if you walked up to them in the street. Granted, the rise in crime/violence HAS made the door to door work less conventional and more dangerous, but the results still pay off, as I've statistically shown you.
If you could establish that all those people were brought into the JWs through the door-to-door work, you might have something there, but as far as I know, no statistics are kept as to the method of initial contact used with new converts. In my experience, most JWs I knew had NOT been contacted through the house-to-house work. Rather, the majority had been initially introduced to the JW teaching through workmates, acquaintances, and relatives or had been raised as JWs. It was a very small percentage who had come in through the door to door work. Which makes the statistics I cited regarding 2011 that much worse (and the numbers are similar for most years, I only picked 2011 because it was the most recent number I had). Over 5000 hours to make a convert, and most converts did not come in through that means. So how many hours to make a real convert who was actually contacted through the door-to-door work? 10,000? 15,000? Very efficient indeed.
The primary method of making new disciples is preaching from house to house. This is what most JW's spend their time doing. Inviting people to the Memorial is also primarily done by house to house. This is the primary method for memorial invitations globally. You cannot take a method (such as informal witnessing) substantially LESS advocated/employed and use it for your case. We are talking about what most of the time the preaching hours you quote are spent on. And most of them are spent in the door to door ministry. The door to door work has its benefits, as is shown by the increase in Memorial attendance and converting of JW's in the past 50 years. There are other methods used, but they are so much lower when compared with the house to house work, they are not comparable/extremely significant.
The other question that crosses my (admittedly cynical) mind is whether we should trust the growth statistics from the WTS in the first place. They claim growth every year, but seem to be on a downsizing campaign the last few years. Branches are being closed and consolidated, as are local congregations. If the organization were actually growing as it claims, it seems they would be opening new branches and congregations, not closing the ones it has.
Well, downsizing and consolidation are economical methods to save funds, and better use them on things that take priority. If one branch can supply literature to every region that received literature from 5 other branch facilities, it is entirely reasonable and logical to consolidate them into one as doing such would save considerable funds. Over 10,000 congregations were opened in the last year, there are more Kingdom Halls that need to be built than they can keep up with and yet you are arguing that our figures are unreliable? Yes, that is an interesting copout when your back is against the wall with the figures that show door to door preaching has been effective over many years.
Wow. A lot of research here to get out of the mandate to go forth making disciples. Ah well. The message must not be all that important. Maybe share it while getting your hair done or waiting for the dentist, but don't put yourself out. Understand, I like it that way!
The less I have to hear this message the better. *whew* We can always count on humans taking the path of least resistance!
You have heard the message... people have witnessed to Christ, to you. And to Still. And if you want to go to Christ, you can do so. Of course if you reject the message and the messager (by rejecting what is said, or not believing what is said)... do they have an obligation to continue to bother you with a message you do not want to hear more about?
I am not understanding either yours, or Still's, point.
Just because someone is not going door-to-door... Vander has it right on that (and you could check out jwfacts as well for more info)... does not mean that they do not witness to Christ.
I also find it amusing that you a) reject, b) sometimes mock, and c) criticize people for their faith and for 'witnessing' to you... and yet here you are, criticizing people for NOT witnessing good or hard enough (in your opinion).
Reminding me of these verses:
"To what can I compare this generation? It is like children playing a game in the public square. They complain to their friends, We played wedding songs, and you didn't dance, so we played funeral songs, and you didn't mourn.'
For John didn't spend his time eating and drinking, and you say, 'He's possessed by a demon.'
The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners."' But wisdom is proved right by her actions."
Recovery, did I miss where you responded to Mormons going door to door as well as jws? Not that the manner of the message matters, if the message is untrue. But you claimed that it should tell someone something that only jws go door to door, and this is untrue. Peace, tammy
still thinking,
With over 5000 publisher-hours spent for every baptism (many of whom, anyway, are young persons who were raised as JWs), the "personal touch" of door knocking is something of a blunt instrument.
Also, the benefits of talking to people "face to face" are not applicable when nobody is at home;
- and usually never at home at the times that JWs call.
Anyway, do you not think it possible to have "face to face" contact with people while in public? I saw it done often enough in Third World countries.
Bill.
You know what Jesus never did? Tell a women to go preach! Nope can't see that as a biblical obligation of mine. How come that is never discussed.
Since the bible is the source of all good examples, I think I should stay home and make a simple life for myself, whilst the menfolk preach in the streets. And when they come in to share their knowledge I will have a nice footbath waiting.
tt
Also curious is wt theology is that Christ was only speaking to his apostles and the annointed ... but not the great crowd... when it comes to partaking of the body and blood of Christ... but he was speaking to the annointed... AND... to the great crowd when it comes to preaching.
Peace,
tammy
You have heard the message... people have witnessed to Christ, to you. And to Still....tec
Actually, I don't hear voices. I've read what has been written here...but you know....they could be lying scribes for all I know. So NO, I haven't been 'witnessed' to, as you put it. The only ones that witnessed to me were....ummm...witnessess...LOL
Bungi Bill...First I think I need to clarify one thing. I do not believe in a god, any god. Not Jehovah, or any other flavour.
Also, the benefits of talking to people "face to face" are not applicable when nobody is at home;
Thats just bad witnessing isn't it. Find out when they are home and go then.
Anyway, do you not think it possible to have "face to face" contact with people while in public? I saw it done often enough in Third World countries.
How many times have you had a face to face conversation with someone telling you the 'good news about Jesus' in a public place? I recall some Hari Krishnas dancing around the city a few years back and handing out pamphlets and things. And many, many years ago christians of some sort hanging around city corners in Auckland trying to lay hands on people..LOL.....But I've gotta say, Christians have been pretty good at keeping their beliefs to themselves for a few years here.
Like New Chapter, I am certainly not complaining. ....but ....Maybe christians are more focussed on third world countries now...I dunno. All I know is that the only people who have bothered to actually TALK to me about Jesus, and even made the effort to come to my home were.....ummmmm...witnessess...LOL
I don't count my inlaws because they talk to me because they are my inlaws...but interestingly, even they seem to avoid actually talking to me about their god, even when I believed in god. They prefer to give me information to read. And they are born again christians.
ROFL twinkle toes....well that explains why the female christians aren't out there....but what about the men.
And also makes you wonder why the JW's send their women folk out when they could be having foot spas....
