by Recovery 398 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
the next I am trying to start my own cult with my own ideas and interpretations.
You continue to show how you are unable to understand things in context. You may feel the wording is close enough, but you completely change the context. I did not say you are trying to start a cult. My point was that you are heading down on a path where that is a future possibility. KS did not say you are starting a cult, but that you could be construed as an apostate.
It is abundantly clear that the bible was just one in a series of 'my god is better than your god' cultural battles. Putting to one side the fact that these are fantasy illustrations and that Ra doesn't really fly through the sky on a boat, Dagon doesn't really rule the fish and Elohim didn't make talking animals we can see how the definition of miracle and magic simply comes down to a definition of which god is the supposed source. To the Egyptians the acts from their gods were miracles. Thus we see the descriptions of supernatural events in the bible as merely power plays. Your god can turn water to blood? Mine can turn rivers and then his son can turn it into wine. You have a magic staff? So do I. You have a flood, we have a better one. You practice divination? Joseph does it better. You practice child sacrifice and burning children so does Abraham. You practice healing by spit magic so does Jesus. You can levitate? So can Jesus. You can practice necromancy , Jesus can also raise the dead. You kill animals to placate your god and bring the harvest? We kill more to placate our God. So it goes on, the bible has the casting of lots, magic sticks parting water and genetically changing farm animals, diving rods finding water, iconography curing snakebites, magic food that has variable shelf life, gesture magic ( raise arms stop earth rotation ) , fire from heaven magic, man v angel combat, invisibility, teleportation, prophetic theomancy, demonic struggles and casting out, magic boxes, curses and curse objects, crystal gazing ( Urim thummim could be this ) , animal command,trance magic, magic days and magic dates. There are magic realms , magic punishment and magic rituals that must be performed to get to them ( baptism . )
The distinction is semantics. My god does it = miracle, priesthood, divine. Your god does it = magic, magician, diabolical. Nothing attributed in the bible ( with the possible exceptin of talking to spirits) to any false god as magic is not simply replicated bigger and better by bible god. Ironically at no stage did bible god ever simply say - hey Dagon doesn't exist don't sweat, since he doesn't exist I won't bother to do low grade magic acts , let's talk about physics and I'll show you some really useful sh*t. Instead he just circus performs enough to outdo whichever god needed to be outdone and involves lots of dead animals in his magic routines. Culture wars no more.
Well said Qcmbr
And through the magic... or is it a miracle? ... of the Internet, comes TTATT at :
In another thread, Recovery posted this:
Arguments left picked apart and largely unanswered? You must not have seen how all objections were thoroughly refuted in the 'magic vs. miracles' thread.
So Recovery is declaring victory in this thread, having "thoroughly refuted ALL objections", LOL!
Let me take this opportunity to repeat and re-phrase (and to clean up the formattting of) a few challenges he DIDN'T refute.
Recovery said:
KingSolomon, All you did was quote secular authorities who speculate as to what kind of 'magic' they believe Moses employed. They speculate as to what his training would have consisted of and what it would have entailed being a son of Pharoah's daughter. It is complete conjecture, supposition, and speculation to say that Moses would have relied on Egyptian magic to perform his miracles. I think that's a stretch of immense proportions.
If you bothered to look, you would've seen that I understand that JW theology holds that the source of power matters: YHWH implies "miracle"; Satan implies "magic". So put that straw man to rest.
But why are you still arguing against a point you've clearly conceded (above), that at least ONE OT prophets (Daniel) STUDIED magic?
Here it is, if you don't want to scroll to the top of the page:
Recovery said:
The WT quotes a secular authority that says that Daniel studied magic (astrology and omens), thus agreeing with such a possibility.
So you accept only the opinions of secular authorities if they appear in JW publications? Odd, but OK, we'll work with that.
So let's just put this ONE issue in the "resolved as agreed upon" column: Recovery, Leo, Sol, the WT, and JWFacts can ALL agree on the point that Daniel studied magic.
NOW, here's where we shift to use of inductive logic, moving from "studying" to "practicing":
Does that mean it's OK for a JW to simply STUDY MAGIC?
Clearly not: as I said above, it would be a poor defense for a JW to claim that they have an Ouija Board in their house simply so they could STUDY the occult. The J.C. would likely point out that studying something implies a strong likelihood of PRACTICING.
You cannot study or learn any skill WITHOUT practice, much like you cannot learning ANY skill that involves physicality and muscle-memory (dancing, playing an instrument, mountain-climbing, reciting magical spells/incantation, magical gestures, magic rituals, etc) simply by reading a book! Without PRACTICING them.
Even subjects based in theory have a demonstration element, which is why almost all science courses (chemistry, physics, etc) have a LABORATORY component, where the student can actually repeat or carry out the experiments they read about for themselves.
And if that's not compelling enough, do you think it outlandish to accept the words of the Bible itself?
Acts 7:22: And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds.
The passage is saying that Moses not only was taught the secret wisdom of the Egyptians (including magic) as a young man, but Moses also possessed the exceptional facility of reciting the magic incantations, AND in "deeds", implying he was a skilled practitioner of the magical gestures and rituals required to perform magic. He was not just good, he was "mighty", exceptionally talented at it, per Acts.
That IS PRACTICING: book smarts is not "MIGHTY in deeds".
And notice the timing (before he performed the snake trick):
Acts 7:21 refers to Moses being retrieved out of the Nile as an infant by the daughter of the Pharoah, and Acts 7:23 refers to his age (40) when returning to Egypt. Acts 7:22 can refer ONLY to practicing magic as a young man, and does NOT refer to when Moses later returned to ask Pharoah to release the Israelites, using a non-violent miracle (turning staff into serpent) to impress upon Pharoah why he should comply (and Pharoah wasn't impressed, after HIS court magicians replicated the trick).
So Acts 7:22 is itself the "smoking gun" that indicates his early education in magical arts, and Moses practicing it.
Recovery said:
Moses has to choose between Almighty God's assistance, and the assistance of the Egyptians whom he utterly demonstrated to be completely powerless with the intervention of Jehovah. Somehow, I don't find it likely to make such assertions about Moses.
"Completely powerless"? That's not what the account relates.
Remember, the Pharaoh's magicians performed the same exact trick of turning a staff into a serpent; the Pharoah didn't relent, as HE also wasn't impressed with the semantic difference between miracles and magic.
Which raises another point:
What was the source of power for Pharoah's magicians? If Satan, then what is the source of Satan's magical power?
Did YHWH forget to design Satan with an emergency shutoff switch for his "magical power", or is YHWH actively enabling the magical powers of Satan?
Perhaps Satan is running off an Energizer battery, or maybe he's gone solar?
Hm, I'm sure Recovery would love to reply but he/she/it can't right now.
mrsjones, perhaps someone could read his/her/its mind and play devil's advocate.
LoL, I really don't think that should be too hard Blondie.
seems to have gone very quiet from Recovery tonight,
RECOVERY ARE YOU OUT THERE?
