Sam Harris - On the Freedom to Offend an Imaginary God

by cofty 93 Replies latest social current

  • cofty
    cofty

    Yes she is an anti-cremecaramel bigot! Don't know how I put up with it grrrrr.

    Creme Caramel recipe..

    Heat sugar and water until it becomes golden brown caramel and pour into bottom of warmed ramekins

    Make vanilla custard with eggs, castor sugar, milk and vanilla seeds and fill up ramekins.

    Cook in bain marie (tray half filled with water in oven) for 20ish minutes. Let it set overnight so caramel is absored by custard and turn out just before serving.

    Mrs Cofty says its yuck, that makes me so angry I think I will burn my house down and balme her for insulting something that is really precious to me!

  • Joey Jo-Jo
    Joey Jo-Jo

    slimboyfat wrote :Do not doubt for one minute that if the Christian church regained the power it had before the Enlightenment it would again become just as authoritarian and brutal as it was before the Enlightenment and as Islam is now.

    No, unless you kill the internet and education, so everyone becomes illiterate. It's been a long time since romans only allowed those to read the bible in latin and only in churchs.

    There is nothing intrinsically more violent about Islam or tolerant about Christianity, these are just effects of the historical and social situations the respective religions now find themselves in.

    Yes there is, for one the bible asks to love one another like your own while the quran asks to kill, it teachs that dying for allah during a fight is noble.

  • Joey Jo-Jo
    Joey Jo-Jo

    King Solomon wrote People forget that the battles between islamists and Xians had been going on for hundreds of years BEFORE our Founding Fathers established freedom of religion in America; hence, they made a strong statement against extremist's intolerance of other's religions, as well. Unfortunately, that message is lost/ignored by many nowadays.

    Actually those wars were between christian nations and arabs, there is no historical evidence for islam.

  • Joey Jo-Jo
    Joey Jo-Jo

    tec wrote When people start looking at every Muslim as an extremist and a terrorist (or even as a potential extremist or terrorist or even as people who approve of extremists and terrorism), then that is a problem. That leads to hate and fear of an entire group of people for the actions of some (that the others speak against) That leads to propoganda, which we have plenty of, and that in turn leads to even more suspicion.

    Let me put it to you this, if I believe in a book that promotes hate and acts of terrorism, yet my view of the book is more watered down and I pick and choose what to believe from this book to be more social aceptable. Does this make me a deliver of the book or not? and if not does that not mean that the source should be judged and not the person of that source?

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    I'm pretty sure there are verses about love in the Koran----just as there are many verses about killing others for the sake of god in the Bible.

    Both books are beastly.

  • tec
    tec

    You would not make such a statment if we were talking about politics, art, music, food.

    I would if we were talking about your loved ones though.

    And then you call in the issue of LOVE?

    And then I QUESTION the issue of love. Because I don't know what it is that would have someone trash something so important to someone else, or someONE so important to someone else.

    I realize that it is hard to grasp. Because some think that God is imaginary, and so it does not matter.

    So you tell me what it is. I am asking.

    I can't trash a food you like or I do not love you? I can't trash a band you love, or I do not love you? How about a political candidate? Can I come out and trash a candidate you love, or does that mean I don't love?

    Come on now. This is not the same. If you want to make a more equitable comparison, then this would be it:

    If you trashed one of my loved ones, then I would question your respect or your love for me. Especially if you mock my love for my loved one, as well.

    It is a fine line though, I admit. Because I know that some people will speak against and perhaps even trash something that someone loves, if that thing that they love is harmful to them.

    But you mistake my words earlier, because I am not judging you... I am at a loss to understand some of the attitudes, intolerance (and admitted bigotry) shown. Truly at a loss. And every comment I read, I just seem to see it growing.

    And that's where is makes no sense. You can't be nice about what I believe, even if what I believe is so beyond ridiculous to you, and that means you don't love/respect/care about me.

    It is not about nice. It is about respect. There is a way to disagree with someone without being disrespectful. Without showing contempt for something that is important to someone. I think if you respect or care about that person, you would attempt to disagree in a respectful manner.

    I am thinking that frustration plays a part in this as well... in trying to get through to someone, or because you have also been treated with disrespect.

    But it doesn't hold for any other opinion. Only religion.

    Religion? Perhaps for some.

    But for some it is more for the person that they love: God, Christ, Mohammad, whomever.

    And it does hold for things like family, friends, and loved ones.

    Well some of us don't think that religious opinion needs to be handled any differently than any other opinion.

    Fine. But you are fooling yourself if you think there is not a difference between trashing the God that someone loves, and trashing a favorite sport.

    And some of us think that respect can still be shown in disagreement, and in such a way that talks and tolerance COULD happen... whereas mockery, and 'poking a hornet nest' lead to the opposite.

    Would I deny a job, help, programs or rights to those with these differing opinions? NO! And you can look at my posts on this thread to see that. But that's not enough is it? I must also respect those beliefs or I don't love other people. And it's ignorant statements like this that just drive us crazy.

    You turned my pondering, my questioning into this statement of fact. That drives me crazy too, lol.

    You do not have to respect the belief.

    But you can still treat a person with respect, and i do not see how mocking and deriding their faith is showing them respect.

    Like I said, there is a fine line. There are people out there who DON'T care or respect someone simply on the basis of their faith. Regardless of what their faith teaches them. Which I think is a dangerous place to be.

    Now, I don't think you're a person who doesn't care... but there are people who don't care. There are people who don't even see the person past the faith. That, too, is a dangerous place to be.

    Peace,

    tammy

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    Fine. But you are fooling yourself if you think there is not a difference between trashing the God that someone loves, and trashing a favorite sport.

    There is only a difference because you say there is a difference. You are fooling yourself if you think there really is a difference. See how that works? I don't mock the people in my life, but I do debate them if they bring it up. Here is the funny thing. I don't care if they respect my atheism. It just doesn't matter. Now if they were to do the JW thing and write me off, that is another level that I find unacceptable. But I don't feel hurt or disrespected. But don't respect a believers beliefs, and that's an entirely different thing for some reason. That's disrespecting THEM.

    I think it is healthy for us to shift this balance a bit. It is healthy to be able to express ourselves exactly how we feel. We do it with everything else, and we can do it with belief. I feel very saddened when I see those I love lavishing love and devotion on something that does not exist. What a waste. But they do it, and I leave them alone unless they bring it up. Then, I'm not going to pretend to respect these silly things. My brother never respected my belief, and I'm grateful for that today. What he was saying made a lot of sense and he did not edit. It's not because he wanted to trash me personally, but because he spoke up about me wasting my life and emotion on something that had nothing to give in return.

  • cofty
    cofty

    If you trashed one of my loved ones, then I would question your respect or your love for me. - Tammy

    If your loved one was promoting extreme misogyny and homophobia I would be doing you a favour by criticising them.

  • tec
    tec

    Of everything i wrote, that is what you respond to, and that alone?

    Okay.

    I don't mock atheism. i don't mock people who have set their previous faith aside; I don't mock the setting of that previous faith aside. I disagree... but I can manage to do so without mocking or insulting a single person... OR... an entire people on the basis of faith alone.

    Some people do though, and whether it is on the basis of atheism, or the basis of faith... it is wrong, and it is dangerous.

    You see it yourself, NC. How hurt were you (or angry, or distressed, or whatever you felt) when you read that article that said atheists are the least trusted people ... whatever? (I don't actually remember the article title). That was on the basis of atheism alone (their world view), and had nothing to do with the individual or anything they had done. It was undeserved. So when people come and do the same thing on the basis of faith or religion (even though it is undeserved in many/most/or even some cases), can you not understand why i am so down about this entire thing?

    Peace,

    tammy

  • cofty
    cofty

    I don't mock atheism. i don't mock people who have set their previous faith aside; I don't mock the setting of that previous faith aside. - Tammy

    Feel free.

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