Why are people burning their city to the ground in Baltimore? How doe Looting and Mob Violence Help?

by PokerPlayerPhil 184 Replies latest social current

  • Billyblobber
    Billyblobber

    Also, the reason so many related charges are being brought up is that in other, similar cases, many police officers get off on technicalities because the exact charge cannot be proven. It means that the prosecutor feels that the officers could be proven at fault of one or some of these charges, and it's the best way to get something to stick.

    The racial makeup of Baltimore is too tied to class to make a straight racial distinction in this particular case. It gets drawn into the larger narrative, of course, because race and economics are so aligned in America, but the crux of the protests in this particular issue is that Baltimore's police is horribly managed and corrupt, from all reports.

    As was pointed out before, many of the industrial cities like Baltimore/Detroit/etc. in the U.S., that were building a middle class based on industry specifically barred black people from buying property in up and coming suburban neighborhoods until the end of the 20th century, forcing them to basically rent in the inner city and creating large inner city ghettos when the industry and money base left the cities (and inner city education, public services, etc. dropped along with this as well). Thus, while most of the negative incidents in Baltimore focus on black people, it's also because the entire inner city is basically poor and black - and aligns directly with socioeconomic issues.

    The officers being black has absolutely nothing to do with anything, no matter what the case is, anyway. When people say that police unfairly target and punish black people, they are talking about the institution of the police in America, and are not making a distinction between the race of the officers in question.

  • Simon
    Simon

    Yes, murder means you intended to kill. I doubt they can show that the driver or anyone else was intent on killing him. That's just pie in the sky.

    Criminal negligent homicide is more likely. You did something that put someone else at risk and though you didn't intend for them to die they did and you are responsible because of things you intentionally did (weren't just "not careful" which would be manslaughter).

    Even that might be a stretch (obviously, depending on the evidence they have we we may not) so they may just have negligence - failure to get medical care, failure to seat-belt etc...

    I think "joint enterprise" would be tough because there is such a disconnect between the people who made the arrest and put him in the van and subsequent events, again, unless they have some evidence of conspiracy. They weren't all acting together at once and the video of them putting him in the van shows them being quite careful, certainly not aggressive or out of control.

    I think the claim that they are charged for making a false arrest is ridiculous and would have huge implications for policing. He was guilty of resisting arrest, it doesn't matter if that arrest was unwarranted. Imagine someone being arrested on suspicion of having class A drugs and the tests come back negative - do the police get arrested and imprisoned as a result?

  • Simon
    Simon
    Also, the reason so many related charges are being brought up is that in other, similar cases, many police officers get off on technicalities because the exact charge cannot be proven. It means that the prosecutor feels that the officers could be proven at fault of one or some of these charges, and it's the best way to get something to stick.

    I'm not sure about that. I don't think you get to present everything from littering and jay-walking to murder one and make do with whatever you get. You have to make a case for what you charge someone with and that has to be fairly specific.

    Remember, you need to convince a jury beyond reasonable doubt that they are guilty of a specific crime. If you are fishing for something they you almost provide the reasons for that doubt in doing so - if you don't know what you think they did then how are they supposed to?

    If they do charge with everything and the kitchen sink then that may well be why many prosecutions are unsuccessful but that is just speculation.

    The racial makeup of Baltimore is too tied to class to make a straight racial distinction in this particular case. It gets drawn into the larger narrative, of course, because race and economics are so aligned in America, but the crux of the protests in this particular issue is that Baltimore's police is horribly managed and corrupt, from all reports.

    I think that is the truth. It's about wealth and inequality and it just happens that many times this divide may correlate with racial divides so the two get conflated.

  • paulmolark
    paulmolark
    I am beginning to think a true lack of understanding of American culture is playing a huge role in your inability to fully understand or grasp what life in this country is like for black people. you stats earlier that you think the divide in this country is class based but most Americans know this is not true even if they don't want to admit it.
  • digderidoo
    digderidoo

    Murder also means an intention to cause grevious bodily harm, where the result is death. Though i agree it appears unlikely it is a question of fact for the jury to decide.

    There could be a disconnect between events for joint enterprise, but ultimately that's question of fact to lay before the jury, as equally there could also be a connection.

    False arrest can result in assault charges ... in the example of drugs coming back negative, i would assume there is an initial probable cause, ie a bag of white powder should be enough. In the arrest of Freddie Gray it seems to be implied there was no probable cause, leaving the police officers open to a charge of assault. Resisting an illegal arrest is lawful as far as English law is concerned, the defendant would not be charged ... as for US law on resisting arrest i'm not 100%.

  • Billyblobber
    Billyblobber

    Well, it's not just a conflation. Many police departments that deal with those types of inner cities are either taught or learn from peers or experience with peers to view things through a racial lens. If police take the viewpoint that they are "at war" with criminals (which is a huge viewpoint in the inner city among police), and most of the criminals are a certain race, then they will have the same problems as soldiers, in which some just relate the race/ethnicity of the country in which they're fighting as the enemy and gradually dehumanize them (including civilians), or view them as "others" in their own minds, which causes them to treat them differently. You're dealing with natural human things like selection biases and snap judgments, that are dangerous when the people doing so are often armed, and can get away with much more than a normal citizen due to being more protected in various ways (by other police, by prosecutors who depend on police for convictions and don't want to get on their bad sides, etc.).

    That's the "racism" that is talked about in that context - a large portion of people that harbor an automatic snap shift in how they view black/latin/whatever people due to working in areas where those people are the underclass, and thus, more likely to be criminals. It doesn't mean a default hatred, it's a difference in how one approaches or treats someone based on race, including assumptions of criminality or danger. Even if it's UNDERSTANDABLE, that does not make it RIGHT for those that are victims of it.

    However, since police departments are institutions, something can be done DIRECTLY about this. Better training, forcing at least some education about basic socioeconomic theories to police, better oversight, not letting prosecutors with conflicting interests handle grand juries in those types of cases, not letting people with obvious psychological issues carry guns around as an arm of the state, etc. That's the kind of change that can be forced if enough of the populace turns against it.

  • recovering
    recovering

    Simon this what second degree murder is defined as in this country. Intent to kill need not be an element of the crime. Please see the citation I have provided below...

    Depraved-heart murder is the form of murder that establishes that the willful doing of a dangerous and reckless act with wanton indifference to the consequences and perils involved, is just as blameworthy, and just as worthy of punishment, when the harmful result ensues, as is the express intent to kill itself. This highly blameworthy state of mind is not one of mere negligence.... It is not merely one even of gross criminal negligence.... It involves rather the deliberate perpetration of a knowingly dangerous act with reckless and wanton unconcern and indifference as to whether anyone is harmed or not. The common law treats such a state of mind as just as blameworthy, just as anti-social and, therefore, just as truly murderous as the specific intents to kill and to harm.

    —Judge Moylan, Debettencourt v. State[3]a
  • GrreatTeacher
    GrreatTeacher

    My inlaws lived in south Baltimore in a working class neighborhood that so feared blacks moving in that the actual deed to their property stated 3 things: No Negros, No Jews, and no farm animals. I don't know whether they were listed in order of importance or not. Their house was built in the 1920s so the restriction dated from that time. Of course it couldn't be enforced once laws were passed prohibiting discrimination in housing, but the area has only recently seen its first black folks move in. The white folks are quite angry about it, but not all of them can afford to move to the suburbs.

    The ones who could move out to the suburbs found beaches on the Chesapeake bay and its tributaries. They liked the so much that they put up big signs at the entrances stating, "No niggers and no Jews." They also had to come down when the law prohibited them.

    Law enforcement is corrupt. The city jail was being run by the criminals. They ran their drug businesses from the inside and one officer ended up pregnant by an inmate. This happened just recently.

    Nobody wants to work in Baltimore anyhow because the pay for officers is so much lower than surrounding counties. It's also known to be very violent and not a safe place to work. There's lots of turnover on the force. They're not very much into the "serve" part of serve and protect. A couple years ago, some people leaving an Orioles game got lost in a bad neighborhood and when they stopped to ask some officers for directions, they screamed at them and told them to get the hell out of there in a threatening way.

    The city is racist and still de facto segregated. There has been some new highrise construction along Key Highway and in Canton along the waterfront, but they're definitely not affordable housing! So, yes, they do bring more tax revenue into the city which is badly needed. The roads are horrible. Driving through the city will destroy your suspension. There are water main leaks; the infrastructure is falling apart. But, that just increases the divide between the haves and the have nots. There just isn't much middle class left in the city. They moved to the suburbs years ago.

    It's definitely a city in crisis.

  • PokerPlayerPhil
    PokerPlayerPhil

    The lack of change happening through peaceful protesting is definitely changing how groups are handling themselves. Look what happened three years ago with the "Wall Street" protesters that were pissed off they could not find jobs with degrees, were living with their parents and politicians were only worried about getting re-elected (you get a full pension after serving 5 years as a Senator and Congressman-woman), the March on Wall Street was a total failure with no follow up.

    DOC makes a point that's ringing loud in the United States, I asked people what they think and surprisingly they are for a more active, less passive role in trying to make changes. The USA has toppled many Middle Eastern Governments through bloodshed and violence, nothing gets done through peaceful means here because the people are too disconnected with their fellows cause. If people were unified and thought the issues through like we do here, the politicians would be scared as hell and people like the Koch Brothers money would not mean shit! It's everyone who sits on the ass asking others to make the tough choices they should be doing by voting for better representation.

    You want good cities, you want good wages, you want good food but your not willing to fight for these. If people really cared about others, Walmart would be out of business for hiring slave-labor, low-life leader of business practices instead of thriving. Why are people fighting each other instead of heading to the roots of these problems and going after those who destroyed the inner-city schools, stole money from programs to get kids from the worst parts of the city on track for a chance! Fox News Talking Heads preach "The American Dream is alive and well for everyone!", that's bullshit according to men like Malcom Gladwell(I know he's not the best person to post here but he cares and tells things as best as his stats will show(assuming he's not skewing them)). Conservative Economist and the White Propaganda Machine (Ditto Head), (Lover of Bush-Clinton or Rand Paul) preach such nonsense, the Left are not fear mongering, the real Liberals are not afraid to pay their fair share of taxes as long as they help the US instead of being wasted on Military Weapons and Regime Toppling in the Middle East!

    I think were are going to find some interesting facts once more stripping of benefits to the most needy happens. The quest for the Ultra Rich to pay no taxes will naturally segregate the rich from the poor and leave those in between hanging of the cliff. We need preachers of Social Justice and leaders to fight the freaks like Joel Olstein who ameliorate the consciences of the biggest thieves in the United States. They want their empires to carry one like the Rothschild and Gettys. In England or Ireland some archaeologist uncovered a royal tomb dated to around the 2nd or 4th century. Nobody knows how they were or what their names were, in their quest to rule the World the Business Machete will slash the wages of the Blacks even further making the social injustice spread causing more crime and further militarization of the police departments. It's coming people, when your neighbors can't feed their kids because your so worried about not paying taxes for yachts and Bugatti cars($2 million dollar cars!0 we will break!

    My teacher was the only white kid attending a high school near Watts, California and he liked it even though he stood out like a sore thumb. The community respected his family from all the good his father did as a preacher who fought the System to get more for a city and people the State wanted to throw away or sweep under their steel matts. When people can't provide for their families because all the greedy companies moved overseas in search of Slave Labor, what do you expect?

    The Politicians will change things when the Voters come together and fight instead of behaving apathetically and putting their heads in the sand, one Radio Clown said "I want to quote what some author said back in 1964. "just leave us alone and let us watch our TVs, that's all people really want!" Late NIght Radio Talk Show Clown's message implies those in the City have a TV, they have the liberty to sit on their ass instead of some single mother working three jobs to put poisonous-tainted food on her kids plates. Two locals ran for political office in ran, these two vipers I knew in high school and hated the lower class yet they ended up making it in the head of the School District and the other made Board of Supervisors. They hated the Hispanics and poor and guess whose in charge, they go to their White Churches on Sunday and sharl at the poor!

    One more dam thing, these people in the cities don't want to sit on their ass, it's not by choice jobs that pay enough for them to have a family are long gone. Whose fault is it that kids in poor areas have so many obstacles in their path, no all can grow up and be a saint like Bill Cosby who blasted the Blacks as "No Morals", "No Fathers to guide them so they end up sleeping with their own daughters", "Mothers need to restrain themselves from sexually gratifying men who only want to use their body in the black community" I heard him say this while standing next to a black(white wannabee) psychiatrist addressing some of the riches members of the United States, with enemies like Dr. Cosby who needs terrorists?

    "By Lyndsey Layton April 15

    New research that shows poor children have smaller brains than affluent children has deepened the national debate about ways to narrow the achievement gap.

    Neuroscientists who studied the brain scans of nearly
    1,100 children and young adults nationwide from ages 3 to 20 found that the surface area of the cerebral cortex was linked to family income. They discovered that the brains of children in families that earned less than $25,000 a year had surface areas 6 percent smaller than those whose families earned $150,000 or more. The poor children also scored lower on average on a battery of cognitive tests.

    The region of the brain in question handles language, memory, spatial skills and reasoning, all important to success in school and beyond.


    http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/new-brain-science-shows-poor-kids-have-smaller-brains-than-affluent-kids/2015/04/15/3b679858-e2bc-11e4-b510-962fcfabc310_story.html
  • Simon
    Simon
    That's the "racism" that is talked about in that context - a large portion of people that harbor an automatic snap shift in how they view black/latin/whatever people due to working in areas where those people are the underclass, and thus, more likely to be criminals. It doesn't mean a default hatred, it's a difference in how one approaches or treats someone based on race, including assumptions of criminality or danger. Even if it's UNDERSTANDABLE, that does not make it RIGHT for those that are victims of it.

    Yes, race becomes a quick and convenient proxy to judge class and affluence which can easily be confused with racism when it isn't even though the bias appears to be against a race.

    this what second degree murder is defined as in this country

    So that definition sounds less like "intend to kill someone specifically" and more like "shooting into a crowd is likely to kill someone" (but no on specifically).

    The lack of change happening through peaceful protesting is definitely changing how groups are handling themselves. Look what happened three years ago with the "Wall Street" protesters that were pissed off they could not find jobs with degrees, were living with their parents and politicians were only worried about getting re-elected (you get a full pension after serving 5 years as a Senator and Congressman-woman), the March on Wall Street was a total failure with no follow up.

    I disagree with the idea that violent protest is the only way to get change or is particularly effective or necessary. How many race riots have there been? How much change has happened because of them? Likewise, how many gay-rights riots or pot-riots have there been vs the change happening now?

    Violent protest only guarantees change if it's a military coup. For democracies what causes change is votes. The violent protests and the non-violent protests ultimately need to do the same thing - change public opinion sufficiently to change votes to alter support for or objection to a cause.

    Some causes accomplish that through education, through peaceful protest or through changing attitudes over long periods and others seek to force change but no amount of violence or force will change anything if attitudes don't change. If it did then terrorism should be successful - but mostly it isn't because it hardens attitudes against it, Likewise riots don't convince people that those doing it are victims of police brutality but may harden attitudes against them as criminals that need harsh treatment.

    What is going to make Baltimore better is not violence or riots, it will be years of hard work and effort.

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