Why are people burning their city to the ground in Baltimore? How doe Looting and Mob Violence Help?

by PokerPlayerPhil 184 Replies latest social current

• 

  Billyblobber

  Also, the Baltimore police department has paid something like 6 million in the last 4 years for police brutality lawsuits. They have a horribly run police department, which has actually become at least a little more known in public since The Wire's popularity (David Simon created the show based on his experiences as a police reporter - it became one of the highest reviewed shows of all time), and known a bit more among the mainstream thanks to these recent events.

  Note that this is the PAID amount, not things that were alleged but not proven, or things completely swept under the rug, or accepted as par for the course. People are seriously wondering why people would be protesting about that?! What in the world?
• 

  paulmolark

  "Also, the Baltimore police department has paid something like 6 million in the last 4 years "

  I was discussing this a few pages back. The scarier aspect of that 6 million dollars is that it was for judgements in over 100 cases of civil rights violations and abuse. This department is obviously packed to the gills with corruption.
• 

  recovering

  Also remember that this is 6 million in a municipality that caps the settlement awards at 200 thousand per incident.
• 

  Simon

  What do we know for sure Simon?

  You seem intent to draw up a long list of accusations but most are not relevant or minor.

  1. The initial arrest was illegal. The police had no probable cause for the arrest.

  And the charge for this is what? Is it something that you charge people for (criminally)

  2. The police officers broke department policy by not rendering medical attention to Mr Gray

  So violating policy - again, what charge does this carry?

  3. The way that Mr Gray was transported in the van was against police department policy.

  Policy policy policy. What charge?

  4. There where unreported stops that the police van made.

  One stop I believe and we have no further details yet. This could be key but it may be nothing.

  5 The medical examiner has determined that Mr Gray's death was a homicide, and it was determined that Mr Gray could not have self inflicted his injuries.

  We already knew he died. All this says is that he didn't kill himself and it wasn't an accident (like a falling tree). It doesn't ascribe any intent.

  6. Baltimore police have a known history of using these rides to inflict injury to persons in custody.( The police Chief, former Baltimore policemen , as well as previous court decisions have already spoken of to this)

  So you're saying it was accepted practice by that force? Sounds like it wasn't the murder charge that the prosecutor has brought and the police chief has something to answer for?

  Anyway, more seriously ...

  I think you're missing the point of what I'm actually saying. Whether or not his death was unfair or unlawful isn't the issue. We know he died and he shouldn't have. We don't know exactly how or when he sustained the fatal injury and who is ultimately responsible. Was it the driver? If so, then what are the charges against the other officers for?

  It's not enough for the prosecutor to wave her hands and say "the police did this". She needs to prove beyond reasonable doubt that specific officers are guilty of specific crimes and I think that will be difficult unless they have other information or, more likely, they want to encourage someone to point the finger at someone else.

  Saying that I think a conviction for those charges is difficult is different to saying that no wrong has been done.
• 

  Simon

  So given the payouts (which I'm sure were all 100% correct and people not playing the system for a compensation payday for any technicalities because that never happens) then why aren't the people at the top being held to account for how the place is run?

  Is it because they are black? Would it be different if they were white?
• 

  paulmolark

  It probably would not be different because we see similar things happen in other american cities with white commissioner lieutenants etc. they are not brought down or forced to answer for the actions of officers do the answer to your question is no it wouldn't be different.

  More importantly why is it when justice was served over 100 times in those cases you seem skeptical that people were looking for paydays but in other cases that go against the afflicted you seem ether supportive? Not being argumentative just an observation
• 

  Simon

  More importantly why is it when justice was served over 100 times in those cases you seem skeptical that people were looking for paydays but in other cases that go against the afflicted you seem ether supportive? Not being argumentative just an observation

  I'm not sure I quite understand what you're saying.

  I doubt 100% of incidents are genuine but I also don't believe none of them are. In some cases the city probably pays out because it's cheaper than going to court. Some cases will be genuine, some wont. Hopefully on balance the majority will be genuine but it's different when it comes to this case because you're no longer talking about a city's budget and taxes, now you're talking about people's lives. It's important that any conviction is because they are guilty and not because a crowd of people really wants someone to be found guilty of something.

  I wonder if there will be demands for the mayor and the chief of police to resign? If not, what does that say about previous claims?

  Given that half of the officers (including the driver) are African American will it be presented as racially motivated? If not, what does that say about previous claims?
• 

  digderidoo

  Interesting discussion, i haven't read the whole thread just the debate around the charges.

  My personal opinion is that either Murder or Manslaughter will be proven based upon what we know. There seems to be confusion that maliciousness is needed to prove murder ( i think it was Simon who said, though I maybe wrong). The mental element the law adopts for murder is 'malice aforethought' ... it's an antiquated legal term and doesn't equate to maliciousness. It basically means intention and that intention is based upon a foresight of consequences. That intention can also be based upon an intention to do grievous bodily harm (or the US equivalent, forgive me i'm English). If the resulting consequence is death from grievous bodily harm it is still murder, even though there wasn't an intention to kill.

  The other avenue prosecutors can go down is involuntary manslaughter. As has been mentioned this an be through negligence, but it can also be proven through an assault that leads to death ... ie, i punch you on the nose, not realising that you have fragile bones and die from my punch. I did not intend to cause you death, or grievous bodily harm, i only intended to assault you. Involuntary manslaughter is death caused through another criminal act (ie my assault).

  Another aspect of this case is joint enterprise or a common purpose. So for instance i'm with a gang of other guys. We all join in beating someone up. One person kicks the victim in the head, causing death. In the eyes of the law joint enterprise is used to find all guilty of murder or manslaughter. It does not matter who struck the fatal blow, the fact that we were all part of the initial beating means that we could all be guilty of the unlawful killing by association. Its a very contentious point of law, as it was initially intended to stop a group of individuals denying they struck the fatal blow and hence declaring themselves innocent. It is in need of reform, however it is still on the books in many countries, including the US.

  So how do we apply this to the case at hand?

  For murder the prosecution would have to prove the officers either intended to kill or intended to cause grievous bodily harm by their so called 'rough riding' and as a result Freddie Gray died. For the purposes of intention, proving that the officers had a virtually certain foresight of death or grievous bodily harm could be enough to prove the mental element (malice aforethought), also known as intention. Proving either of these would mean murder.

  For involuntary manslaughter the prosecutors would have to prove that the officers assaulted Freddie Gray which eventually resulted in his death. Personally i think this has a better chance based upon what we know. As the arrest appears to be wrongful arrest, the officers would more than likely be up for an assault charge. This is enough for involuntary manslaughter, as the result was death. The death could be viewed as a continuous act from the initial assault (wrongful arrest), straight through the rough riding ... either the initial assault or the rough riding proven could be enough for an assault charge. If prosecutors proved this lesser offence, then as the final result was death involuntary manslaughter would in my opinion likely stick.

  Under the concept of joint enterprise, it does not matter which officer struck the fatal blow. If they are all involved in the assault and death was the eventual result, then all officers could be charged in the same way as the one who was doing the driving of the so called 'rough ride'.

  It will be an interesting case to follow and one that i will certainly follow.
• 

  paulmolark

  Well being that the residents are not just basing this demonstration on white cops killing black people but COPS in general killing black people I am sure it will still be labelled as racial motivated. The fact that police consistently target blacks. Black cops and white cops both target african americans for extortion, setups, etc... Poor African American are the low hanging fruit. In some municipalities they are TOLD to target them. For god sake when a police force deems it ok to use photos of african american men as shooting targets it is obvious that something is wrong.

  Most major cities who have had these issues are stating that POLICE are killing black people. Some of those police are black white asian etc... this is what I think people are missing.

  Stop and Frisk targets black people.

  The extreme violent clashes are against black people or in black communities and so black people feel they are targets.
• 

  recovering

  1. The initial arrest was illegal. The police had no probable cause for the arrest.

  And the charge for this is what? Is it something that you charge people for (criminally)

  Yes there is a charge it is called,1 false arrest and 2 official misconduct.

  So violating policy - again, what charge does this carry?

  3. The way that Mr Gray was transported in the van was against police department policy.

  Policy policy policy. What charge?

  Again official misconduct and criminally negligent homicide.

  5 The medical examiner has determined that Mr Gray's death was a homicide, and it was determined that Mr Gray could not have self inflicted his injuries.

  We already knew he died. All this says is that he didn't kill himself and it wasn't an accident (like a falling tree). It doesn't ascribe any intent.

  Criminally negligent homicide does not need to have intent proven as one of the elements of the crime.

  Here is the legal definition....

  Negligent homicide is the killing of another person through gross negligence or without malice. It often includes death that is the result of the negligent operation of a motor vehicle, which includes the operation of a boat or snowmobile. It is characterized as a death caused by death by conduct that grossly deviated from ordinary care. Negligent homicide may be charged as a lesser-included offense of manslaughter. It is also sometimes referred to as "involuntary manslaughter".