Well, this is pretty complex. At any rate, we know that the WTBT$ view is wrong. If Christ was really enthroned in 1914, as the WTBT$ claims, then that future appointment to power happened before the 144,000 were completely gathered, so they could not even be in heaven to see it. According to the WTBT$, the annointed were still being gathered after that Heavenly scene depicted at Revelation 5: 11,12, otherwise they would not have any chosen ones around to become the FDS/GB. Also, according to the WTBT$, the 24 Elders are the 144,00 in their heavenly glory. So for that to be accurate the 144,000 must have received their heavenly calling before Christ was enthroned, or they wouldn't have been waiting around there to witness the coronation.
The 24 Elders in Revelation are NOT the anointed......
by EndofMysteries 75 Replies latest watchtower bible
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AGuest
First, Paul wrote that scripture long before Revelation was written.
Sigh. Okay, if we MUST... and given what you don't know but have opined on... we must...
Paul had heard of parts of the Revelation... LONG before John set it down in writing. John was told to write what he HAD seen, as well as what he WAS seeing and WOULD see. What he HAD seen... he shared with Paul.
"Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this.” Revelation 1:19
“I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago - whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows - such a one was caught up to the third heaven. And I know such a man - whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows - how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 2 Corinthians 12:2-4
Paul was not speaking of himself, but of John, who shared what he had SEEN with Paul when Paul first met him, fourteen years before he wrote his 3 RD letter (1 Corinthians 5:9; 2 Corinthians13:1) to the Corinthians AND had been reacquainted with some of the Apostles (he had fallen out with most of them over the issue of the matter involving the man who slept with his father’s wife in the Corinthian congregation. Because of the division Paul’s instructions caused, which almost ruined that congregation, he and the apostles went their separate way... for 14 years).
John of Patmos was opposed to Paul.
NO, he wasn’t. He was one of the three that APPROVED Paul, indeed ASSIGNED him to his mission TO the nations (because he started out speaking to the JEWS... to whom he returned later... but his message was slightly different from theirs and didn’t want to cause more confusion):
“In fact, James, Cephas, and John, who were known as pillars of the church, recognized the gift God had given me, and they accepted Barnabas and me as their co-workers. They agreed that we should go to the uncircumcised and they to the circumcised.” Galatians 2:9
I don't the details yet but I approach that part.
Of course you don’t. Well, while you’re figuring them out (the “details”)... here’s the TRUTH:
Paul initially was not considered a disciple by the apostles because of his previous persecution. So it took him about three years before he actually met any of them. Barnabas took him up to Jerusalem to introduce him to them, but only James, Peter, and John received him. It was then that John related what he had seen... and Paul put faith in it. As a result, they considered Paul acceptable; however, because of the discontent of the OTHERS (due to Paul’s mishandling of the issue with the Corinthian congregation, which mishandling almost annihilated the faith of that entire congregation), they sent Paul and Barnabas to preach to the nations... which they did for 14 years before finally meeting the others (they went back to Jerusalem because the issue of circumcision had come up and he wanted their weigh-in (Peter had tried to tell the older men that the nations didn’t require circumcision and while the acquiesced to Peter, they did not to Paul and Barnabas). When James reinforced that circumcision was NOT necessary, the other apostles and older men FINALLY accepted Paul and sent him and Barnabas on another mission, this time with letters of introduction. (Acts 9:26-30; 11:2, 4, 17, 18; 15:1, 2, 6, 12, 22, 30-33; Galatians 1:13-2:9)
The MAIN thing that John saw and related to Paul... was Christ coming into his kingdom! John did not see that even some 60 or so years later – he saw it when it occurred (Matthew 16:28). That installation did not take place some 60 or so years after my Lord’s death and resurrection: it occurred 50 DAYS after his death and resurrection (which, BTW, is when the ride of the first horseman began). This is how they knew what the outpouring of holy spirit at Pentecost WAS: evidence of Christ receiving the kingdom and beginning to rule (1 Corinthians 15:25).
At that time, John could NOT have shared ALL that he with EVERYONE. For one, he didn’t UNDERSTAND it enough to do so and their faith wasn’t strong enough to receive it (Paul, however, having been called in a different manner... could receive it; heck, he’d seen a light, hear a voice, had scales put on his eyes, etc.). Second, John would have been put to death if what he saw had gotten out to the wrong men. The “Christians” would have disowned him because they couldn’t understand what he’d seen (Christ hadn’t mentioned any of these things! But he HAD told some that he things to tell them that they couldn’t yet bear!)... leaving him to the Jews, who would have called for his death (imagine him sharing things like “those who called themselves Jews” and “synagogue of Satan”).
AND share that is that it was Christ who had appeared to him?! No, he could only share that with those he trusted and only verbally, and only what he understood. The rest, he held onto until he was TOLD to write it, at which time the things he had SEEN some 60 or so years earlier... were brought BACK to his mind.
So John was very discreet in who he shared his visions with... until the time came and he was told to write them down... and disseminate them.
Paul was very educated.
Yes, he was. He was... wait for it... a LAWYER. And... he was a Roman. Versus a man of Judea OR Samaria...
Reading Paul, who was so careful with his reasoning, sophisticated, and educated, I doubt he meant for us to be stupid in our approach to Christ or scripture.
Then why do YOU keep being so?? I can tell you: your "pride" at being a "lawyer." Heady stuff, isn't it?
Paul specifically speaks of the folly of the cross. The idea that any king or important person would be a messiah by being crucifixed as a common criminal was foolish.
And you misunderstand Paul. Of COURSE it was ridiculous... which was the POINT: my Lord had done nothing to WARRANT such a death, that of a common criminal.
We can't view it the same way b/c our culture is so permated with Christian tradition. When Paul speaks of foolishness, he means the cross.
YOU can't view it... ANY way. Indeed, Paul is speaking of folks like you, folks who thinking is SO “worldly” that the SIMPLICITY of these things just goes right over their heads.
Most Christians do not believe one should be ignorant to be a Christian. In my own life, I've noticed that the more I know about culture, history, church tradition, the more my faith increases.
You certainly can’t tell that by what you post here... at least on these subjects, particularly as to faith. You fluctuate on a daily basis between “I’m a christian” and “I should be an atheist.” Which is why your comments as to “faith” and “christianity” are... beyond coherency.
Most early Christians lived in their original communities. It drew a cross section of beleivers.
Well, then, there you go! Explains who the 24 elders are!
Paul believed in community. One on one interaction with other Christians. I fail to see how a few people can abrogate the role of communal worship. Kkk
If that was the case, why in the world are most of HIS letters to GROUPS of people? Where are all of his letters to the individuals he routinely mentioned? Paul knew that the Body of Christ was made up of a UNION of people... who were IN union with one another by means of their UNION with Christ. Even so, simply understanding that 12 men were chosen... out of HOW many... to be the FOUNDATION of the new faith... should tell you that a “few” is sometimes all that is necessary.
Really, you should at least stick to your truth... which is that you DON’T know. You readily admit it. Why keep throwing yourself into a matter that you ADMIT you DON’T know about? Would be like me trying to opine on computer programming. Haven’t a clue and so know that it’s not a subject I should even involve myself in, except perhaps to ask questions. But to continue to interject rhetoric into a discussion about a topic you ADMIT you don’t have a clue about it... beyond arrogance. It borders on REAL foolishness, the kind some would consider utter stupidity.
Listen... heck, ASK... THEN listen... or at least READ the Bible... and perhaps you’ll learn something. I don’t have very high hopes, though...
A doulos of Christ,
SA
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Bobcat
DATA-DOG:
I agree. This was my point in post #298 on page 1 of this thread - (copied from that post to below)
(Revelation 5:11, 12) 11 And I saw, and I heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice: "The Lamb that was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing. . .
Here the 24 elders in heaven speak of the Lamb as being worthy to receive power. If they are speaking of the Lamb recieiving power in the future sense then they cannot be the 144,000.
It's really pretty plain when you analyze the context. Unfortunately, there is a lot chaff being thrown out to obscure any sort of analytical discussion of the subject.
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AGuest
Why couldn't it be the holy ones that fell out of their tombs? It was all at the same time there was an earth quake and Jesus went up to his father and took the firstfruits with him. On the day of festival of first fruits. Remember noone could touch him for he had not ascended to his father yet and days later Thomas could touch him. Doesn't say how many holy ones rolled out of their graves. It never made sense to me that oh there was an earthquake they went into the city after they rolled out of their graves. The words the holy ones is what made me think why couldn't Jesus and the holy ones ascend at the same time.
Because that would mean the first resurrection has already occurred, dear LL (peace to you!)... which doesn't occur until Christ returns to gather ALL of his chosens ones, NOT just the "holy ones" (Israel) but ALL of those "faithful ones in union" with him. Those who have died, by resurrection... and those who have not died... by metamorphsos (change).
If the first resurrection has occurred, then we are more than 1,000 years past the co-rule with Christ, as well as past the period of Satan's abyssing. Also, keep in mind that SOME reported the emptying of the tombs... while others denied it. There was an earthquake and tombs were decimated... but nothing suggests that the dead in them were resurrected and taken to be with Christ. If so, others would have gone missing, too... particularly the Apostles (who apparently lived long enough to (1) meet Paul and (2) write their accounts decades later).
So, while it sounds like a good explanation, it's not actually logical in line of what occurred AFTER that... is still occurring NOW... and has yet TO occur.
I hope this helps.
Again, peace to you!
A doulos of Christ,
SA
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Band on the Run
John and Paul are clearly different generations. Paul would be dead quite a while when Revelation was written. They were not commentaries.
John of Pamtos is a Christian prophet. I forge the exact range of dates for Revelation.
John of Pamtos is not the apostle John, who is not the evangelist.
Such statements prove there can be never be dsicussion. Stating something is so does not make it so. I don't undersand why you maintain WT beliefs altho you were kicked out.
Who can believe they are the same, John, Jesus' apostle, the gospel writer, and John of Patmos.
Three different people who lived at three different times.
It is interesting, tho, b/c living in NY, I have heard many Jews joke that all Christians only have two names: John and Mary.
What can one say? Paul was long dead before Revelation was witten.
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DATA-DOG
AGuest, I don't agree with everything you wrote.
NO, he wasn't. He was one of the three that APPROVED Paul, indeed ASSIGNED him to his mission TO the nations (because he started out speaking to the JEWS... to whom he returned later... but his message was slightly different from theirs and didn't want to cause more confusion):
"In fact, James, Cephas, and John, who were known as pillars of the church, recognized the gift God had given me, and they accepted Barnabas and me as their co-workers. They agreed that we should go to the uncircumcised and theyto the circumcised." Galatians 2:9
From what I have gathered from reading your posts, I don't think that you believe that any group of men ASSIGNED Paul to do anything. Christ assigned Paul, and those other men did not challenge Paul's assignment. A small point, but one that is important.
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AGuest
I am compelled you ask you both, dear BC and Data-Dog (peace to you, both!):
Where does Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Samson, Moses, David, etc., "fit" into Christ's kingdom? They will all be there, yes? Because the apostles were promised the opportunity to "recline with Abraham" in my Lord's kingdom. Yes? Yet, the kingship/priesthood was not OFFERED while these were alive, but offered FIRST... to the 12 on the night of Passover Nisan 14. Yet, these were faithful men, too, yes?
While they are in a covenant for a kingdom... and granted to rule over the 12 tribes of Israel... do you TRULY believe the Apostles would have a position HIGHER than Abraham? Moses? David? Enoch? That they will rule over THESE... who are not even IN the covenant for co-rulership with Christ? The Apostles quarreled, lacked faith, hid, denied my Lord, displayed hypocrisy, etc. Noah, Moses, Abraham, Joseph, David, etc., all did "just do" (David was forgiven his murder of Uriah/adultery with Bathsheba and paid the price).
THINK, dear ones... in terms of mercy, justice, and FAITH: would the Apostles rule over even Abraham?? Moses??
If not... WHERE would these be... IN God's kingdom? To WHOM did JAH reveal His "intimate" talk... when speaking with mankind??
It's not complicated at all. Look to Christ to see what God would do.
I hope this helps and, again, peace to you!
YOUR servant and a doulos of Christ,
SA
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DATA-DOG
I don't have an issue with any of that. I was just pointing out that no MAN assigned Paul to do anything, Christ did.
Aguest, you don't believe the WT take on the bodies being raised up do you? That the earthquake just spilled bodies on the ground, and some guys who just happened to be hanging out near the graveyard ran into town? Then those reporters were ridiculed by some and not others? Who would doubt that an earthquake opened some tombs? Holy ones being resurrected would indeed be something to create some controversy.
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AGuest
John and Paul are clearly different generations. Paul would be dead quite a while when Revelation was written. They were not commentaries.
John and Paul were of the same generation (although Paul was a bit younger). They were contemporaries. Paul was dead when the Revelation was written because he had been killed many years before after his trial in Rome.
John of Pamtos is a Christian prophet. I forge the exact range of dates for Revelation. John of Pamtos is not the apostle John, who is not the evangelist.
John is the same one who saw my Lord come into his kingdom in 30CE. He is the same one who told ALL of the apostles, as well as James (the brother of my Lord), and Paul of it. I am sorry that your source told you otherwise.
Such statements prove there can be never be dsicussion.
Yet, you keep "discussing."
Stating something is so does not make it so.
I concur. And stating that some other "John" wrote the Revelation doesn't make it so.
I don't undersand why you maintain WT beliefs altho you were kicked out.
Nasty lady. What, it's supposed to hurt my feelings when you say I was kicked out? Did not my Lord say some of us would be expelled from the synagogues? He did. Which is why he told me NOT to leave/DA myself... but let them "expel" me. And so I did. I only maintain what it true... even if the WTBTS teachings agree with it. They don't have much truth, but they are not completely devoid of it. If that were the truth, then there wouldn't even BE a Christ, in their eyes.
Who can believe they are the same, John, Jesus' apostle, the gospel writer, and John of Patmos.
Anyone who's paying attention, to start. Anyone who's received the promised holy spirit, as well. And certainly anyone who is led by the spirit so as to KNOW it.
Three different people who lived at three different times.
Well, I gave you the verses, but you could have ASKED, if you didn't believe them. No bother; continue to put your faith in your scholars (although many of them also believe the Johns to be the same).
It is interesting, tho, b/c living in NY, I have heard many Jews joke that all Christians only have two names: John and Mary.
Could be they are laughing at the belief that John wrote the gospel attributed to him. He didn't.
What can one say? Paul was long dead before Revelation was witten.
What does that have to do with anything I posted? Paul didn't need to BE alive when the Revelation was written. Paul had died before John penned his visions. John had TOLD Paul ABOUT parts of those visions, however, when he MET Paul... many years earlier. John WROTE, as the Revelation... what he HAD seen (earlier and told Paul, apostles, and others about)... what he WAS seeing (at the time)... and what he latersaw. Before he died, PAUL wrote to the Corinthians congregation that John had told him (Paul) about having received part of the revelation 14 years earlier.
A doulos of Christ,
SA
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AGuest
AGuest, I don't agree with everything you wrote.
No worries, dear DD (peace to you!). I do not post what I do in order to garner agreement. I do it because it's the truth. That's it, that's all. Please know that I'm not asking you to believe me, truly. What I would tell you is to ask for yourself... RATHER than believe me. Because the only One I want you to believe is Christ, the Holy Spirit. That is the ONLY way you can ensure you are misled, dear one. As for me, I cannot WAIT for the day when JAH's words that "no one will say to his neighbor know JAH... because they will ALL of them know me" come to their fulfillment. In the meantime, I'm just sharing what I've received on these matters. If folks receive them, cool. If not, cool.
From what I have gathered from reading your posts, I don't think that you believe that any group of men ASSIGNED Paul to do anything. Christ assigned Paul, and those other men did not challenge Paul's assignment. A small point, but one that is important.
That's not entirely accurate, dear one. Yes, my Lord CALLED Paul... to be his disciple and to suffer for his name... but apostles and older men handled Paul's ASSIGNMENTS for the first part of his ministry. Paul was called because of his part in the murder of my Lord's Body members, particularly Stephen. Stephen had an assignment and because of Paul (who called for his death), couldn't fulfill. Someone had to, though, because there were folks who still needed to hear. So... Paul was chosen to replace Stephen (and NOT Judas - Acts 8:1; 9:1, 16; 1:23-26). When Pauls started, he first tried to join himself to the apostles, but they were afraid of him so Barnabas took him to the apostles and told them about how he had been called (Acts 9:26, 27). So he went around with them, arguing with the Greek-speaking Jews who eventually wanted to kill him. So they got him out of the area by way of Samaria sent him alone to Tarsus. (Acts 9:29, 30) While he was away in Tarsus, people of the nations began to accept Christ, starting with the household of Cornelius but the Jews wanted these to be circumcised. Peter held them off by telling him of the vision he had before meeting Cornelius.
Some who had scattered to Cyprus, Antioch, and Phoenicia after Stephen's death began speaking first to the Jews and then to the Gentiles in that area. When those in Jerusalem heard that the nations in Antioch had accepted Christ they sent Barnabas there to see about it. (Acts 11:19-22) When he got there many were added to the Body. So he went to Tarsus, found Saul, and brought him back with him the Antioch. (Acts 11:25, 26) They were there about a year when they heard there was a famine in Judea so Paul and Barnabas were then by the older men in Antioch to take donations togive to the older men in Judea. (Acts 11:27-30) (It was during this time that Herod had the apostle James - NOT the brother of my Lord but the son of Zebedee - killed and Peter imprisoned – Acts 12:2; 15:13)). Paul and Barnabas delivered thecontributions from Antioch to Judea and then returned to Antioch, taking John Mark back with them.
While in Antioch,my Lord told the older men there to set Paul and Barnabas "aside" for the work he had for them. (Acts 13:3, 4) So, they laid hands on Paul and Barnabas and then let them go. This "work" was the ministry in Cyprus, Iconium, Perga in Pamphylia (where John Mark, who had gone with them, left them to return to Jerusalem - he didn't really care for Paul's... mmmmmm... zeal), Lycaonia, Lystra, Derbe, Pisidia, and Attalia. Because it was during his ministry in THESE lands that Paul "suffered" and was ALMOST killed... by stoning. As Stephen had been. When John Mark left them Paul and Barnabas went back to Antioch where they were invited to speak in the synagogue. Paul did the talking there, in his "zealous" style and so some came to see him the next day, including MANY of the nations. This angered the Jews who were jealous of the turnout. They began heckling Paul and Barnabas, who chastised them and said, in essence "Well, okay, you Jews were SUPPOSED to be first but since you're acting like this, we'll just talk to those of the nations." This caused many of those from the nations who were there to rejoice and so they put faith in Christ... but the Jews to through Paul and Barnabas out of the city. So, they left and went to Iconium.
They were run out of Iconium, where they had stones thrown at them, and first to Lycaonia, Lystra, and Derbe. In the first one, folks thought they were Greek gods and when Barnabas and Paul chastised them they were almost killed by men from both Iconium AND Antioch, there. Paul was badly stoned, drug outside the city (Lystra) and left for dead. He went back into the city under cover of the disciples there but left for Derbe the next day. After that they made their way back... to Lystra, then Iconium, then to Antioch where they stayed for awhile. From there, they went around the land. What were they doing? Per Acts 16:4:
"Then he came to Derbe and Lystra. And behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a certain Jewish woman who believed, but his father was Greek. He was well spoken of by the brethren who were at Lystra and Iconium. Paul wanted to have him go on with him. And he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in that region, for they all knew that his father was Greek. And as they went throughthe cities, they delivered to them the decrees to keep, which were determined by theapostles and elders at Jerusalem ."
Eventually, they returned to Antioch and while there, men from Judea came and insisted people of the nations get circumcised. After disputing it quite intensely, these men decided that the APOSTLES needed to be consulted. So, they sent Paul, Barnabas, and some from among them to Jerusalem. (Acts 15:1, 2) Going through Phoenicia and Samaria, they met up with the apostles and older men in Jerusalem. Peter started by relating what HE now understood as to people of nations. That opened the way for Paul and Barnabas to relate how THEIR work had gone. Upon hearing their testimony, James gives HIS decision (abstain from blood, fornication, things strangled or polluted by idols). As a RESULT of this, the apostles and older men sent Paul, Barnabas, Barsabbas (Judas), and Silas out with a letter to those of the NATIONS who were in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia, telling them of their resolution. And so the four went out and delivered that letter. (Acts 15:22-29) When done, Paul and Barnabas decided to stay on in Antioch a while longer.
And that's when the leadership changed: Paul wanted to return to all those they had visited before, which Barnabas was agreeable to... but wanted to take John Mark along with. Paul vehemently disagreed because he felt that John Mark had abandoned them in Pamphylia They got into an argument and Barnabas took off with John Mark and went to Cyprus. Paul took Silas and after being blessed by the brothers, went to Syria and Cilicia, then Derbe, and Lystra. He met and recruited Timothy, who he had get circumcised for the sake of the Jews (who had not yet accepted the decree of the apostles and older men). But that was the point of this part of Paul's mission: to continue delivering the letters setting forth the decrees by the apostles and older men in Jerusalem... that he had been sent out to deliver. ( Acts 16:4 )
They could NOT, however, speak about Christ in Asia... or Bithynia, because my Lord’s spirit WOULD NOT ALLOW IT. (Acts 16:6, 7) So while they did take the decrees to Galatia and share about Christ with those there, they bypassed quite a few towns in the region.
It was here that really began HIS ministry, which started in Galatia, then Thessalonica, then Corinth, and so on. Unfortunately, he didn’t start out well, causing GREAT disruption to the Corinthian congregation and so causing more dissention between himself and the apostles. Prior to, though, he was under the direction of the apostles and older men for a great amount of time, as he acknowledged in his letter to the Galatians.
I hope this helps.
Again, peace to you!
A doulos of Christ,
SA